ecleme22 wrote: ↑21 Nov 2025 07:19 am
You can compete now by signing vets to one year deals.
No vet should be picked up by way of trading prospects, nor be the primary return for any of our trades (the exception would be an Arenado for Castellanos deal if Bloom can’t get anything for NA…).
This strategy is pro today and pro rebuild. If the team is out of it, you flip all the vets at the deadline…
I agree with signing FAs on one year deals, but they are never going to get to being competitive in 2026 based on those additions.
So, IMO, that is not trying to compete.
Well, let's remember how bad Miko, Pallante, Arenado, Fedde and several others were. And the team was 78-84.
I don't think the 2026 team, with the addition of FA vets, will win 100 games. But 82-87 could happen. And that's competitive.
I think there's this assumption that the team will automatically be worse than 2025. I don't think that's the case.
Fortunately, the rebuild isn't starting at zero like the 2012 Cubs.
If you like what we've been getting, then follow this plan because you're simply regurgitating the teams strategy for the last decade.
You may be smarter than DeWitt and MO, not a heavy lift, but you're not bringing home any WS flags with that plan.
Name all the 1 year deals for STARTING players the Cards have signed from 2012-2025.
I'm not talking about signing one year players. I'm talking about your insistence that the team try to be "competitive" every year, even though they have almost zero chance of winning a title even if we added these players.
Instead, the team should spend that money signing some INFAs or hiring better development coaches, etc..
Well, when you sign low risk / high reward vets to one year deals, one of the reasons you do it is to flip them at the deadline to increase the prospects in your organization. Being competitive in 2026 wouldn't be the primary reason for the acquisitions...
Low risk / high reward vets are typically going to command multi-year deals, which creates more risk and makes them less flippable, unless they are really helping your team, in which case you'd hate to lose them.
11WSChamps wrote: ↑21 Nov 2025 11:54 am
Its the St. Louis Cardinals and the NL Central.
If this franchise can't at least compete every season in this division then you've got real problems and now they do.
If people can't see this then they're on the wrong forum.
Yes. They have real problems. Which they are addressing via a rebuild of the farm system. If people can't see this they are in the wrong forum.
Uh huh.
What team wins without generational players?
Do we have one in the organization now? How long until you draft one if ever?
Who from the organization can we trade to obtain such potential?
This franchise has never won a championship without one.
In lieu of a generational player, they can at least develop 2-3 young All-stars from Wetherholt, Doyle, and prospects they get back from trading Donovan, Gray, etc.
rockondlouie wrote: ↑21 Nov 2025 08:48 am
Completely wrong premise by matt.
C. Bloom already has repaired Mo's broken minor league player development system and continues to add quality people to the system.
Nothing done at the big league level can disrupt that...........THE MINOR LEAGUE SYSTEM IS NOW PRIMED to send quality players to the Cardinals!
He can now focus on dealing away veterans like NADO, S. Gray, Donny and maybe even WillyC for prospects or YOUNG MAJOR LEAGUE players with years of control............while STILL FIELDING A COMPETITVE, BUT PERHAPS NOT A PLAYOFF TEAM.
If he's able to save some payroll money dealing away those veterans contracts, then BDWJR (LIKELY) will allow him to re-invest that savings into the 2026 roster adding major league players via trades and smart, low cost free agency.
The 2026 payroll will likely settle somewhere in the $115-130M range...................NOT $200M.
If the Cardinals win 90 games or lose 90 games in 2026 how on earth does this setback the re-build?
AGAIN
THIS DOES NOTHING to disrupt the minor league system or halt the minors from funneling players to the Cardinals in this re-build!
How some can't see this is baffling.
What's baffling is that you think being competitive, while not even making the playoffs, is worth wasting recourses on. Who cares if the team wins 80 or 60 games in 2026? They're not going to compete for the league title and that's all that really matters.
I totally disagree. I would prefer to watch an 80 game winner vs. a 60 game winner any day! And nobody says you have to spend crazy money, but I will never sign up for a team that isn't trying to win and at least be worth watching. So many people here are afraid of spending a little of Bill's money and I just cannot for the life of me understand why? Signing a few decent free agents and building thru prospects can actully coincide. And yea, maybe you will only win 80 games, but at least I will have the will to at least watch. But I will not watch or spend a dime on 2019 to 2022 Pirates who averaged 60 win seasons. No thank you.
The reason the Cardinals have fallen into irrelevance is because the team did just what you suggest: they tired to keep the team nominally "competitive" even when the odds of the team winning a title were almost nothing.
Sometimes winning -- and I mean really winning not just 80 games but a ring -- requires that you step back, make sacrifices, cut away the dead wood to make room for new growth. Honestly, the Cardinals reached that point years ago, but to try to remain "competitive" they clung to over the hill stars, and traded for the twilight years of old stars, and now here we are with a team that is neither nominally "competitive" nor truly competitive.
Fans need to face facts: We are not the Yankees or Dodgers. we can't be truly competitive every year, we have to stop, step back, reload, and take another shot.
Maybe the system will change after the new CBA, but in the meantime we have to accept our reality and not try to skip steps. That will only keep us where we're at.
I kinda have to disagree here a little bit. How many times in MO’s last few years, did we discuss on here how the Cardinals stopped just short of what they KNEW they needed to do??? A player here, a player there, and the team would have been a lot better. So, to be fair, the Cardinals have not really tried to win in a long time. All they have tried to do is win 80 some games and hopefully reach the Post Season where then anything might happen. Well, they didn’t and it hasn’t ! Under the current conditions, DeWitt isn’t going to either. It’s just too expensive to really go for it for him.
If I thought the team could add a fee agent or two and race to the World Series in 2026 or 27, I'd be all over that, but honestly, I don't recall a team in the last 10 seasons that was a single free agent short of winning the WS. Even the 2019 team lost the NLCS 0-4.
But we agree that DeWitt isn't trying. After Tony La Russa left, DeWitt decided to milk the team's past success for as long as possible. Now, the jig is up. It's time to rebuild and the fastest way is too trade off high end vets, get back as many possibles as possible, and build around Winn and JJ.
rockondlouie wrote: ↑21 Nov 2025 08:48 am
Completely wrong premise by matt.
C. Bloom already has repaired Mo's broken minor league player development system and continues to add quality people to the system.
Nothing done at the big league level can disrupt that...........THE MINOR LEAGUE SYSTEM IS NOW PRIMED to send quality players to the Cardinals!
He can now focus on dealing away veterans like NADO, S. Gray, Donny and maybe even WillyC for prospects or YOUNG MAJOR LEAGUE players with years of control............while STILL FIELDING A COMPETITVE, BUT PERHAPS NOT A PLAYOFF TEAM.
If he's able to save some payroll money dealing away those veterans contracts, then BDWJR (LIKELY) will allow him to re-invest that savings into the 2026 roster adding major league players via trades and smart, low cost free agency.
The 2026 payroll will likely settle somewhere in the $115-130M range...................NOT $200M.
If the Cardinals win 90 games or lose 90 games in 2026 how on earth does this setback the re-build?
AGAIN
THIS DOES NOTHING to disrupt the minor league system or halt the minors from funneling players to the Cardinals in this re-build!
How some can't see this is baffling.
What's baffling is that you think being competitive, while not even making the playoffs, is worth wasting recourses on. Who cares if the team wins 80 or 60 games in 2026? They're not going to compete for the league title and that's all that really matters.
I totally disagree. I would prefer to watch an 80 game winner vs. a 60 game winner any day! And nobody says you have to spend crazy money, but I will never sign up for a team that isn't trying to win and at least be worth watching. So many people here are afraid of spending a little of Bill's money and I just cannot for the life of me understand why? Signing a few decent free agents and building thru prospects can actully coincide. And yea, maybe you will only win 80 games, but at least I will have the will to at least watch. But I will not watch or spend a dime on 2019 to 2022 Pirates who averaged 60 win seasons. No thank you.
The reason the Cardinals have fallen into irrelevance is because the team did just what you suggest: they tired to keep the team nominally "competitive" even when the odds of the team winning a title were almost nothing.
Sometimes winning -- and I mean really winning not just 80 games but a ring -- requires that you step back, make sacrifices, cut away the dead wood to make room for new growth. Honestly, the Cardinals reached that point years ago, but to try to remain "competitive" they clung to over the hill stars, and traded for the twilight years of old stars, and now here we are with a team that is neither nominally "competitive" nor truly competitive.
Fans need to face facts: We are not the Yankees or Dodgers. we can't be truly competitive every year, we have to stop, step back, reload, and take another shot.
Maybe the system will change after the new CBA, but in the meantime we have to accept our reality and not try to skip steps. That will only keep us where we're at.
I kinda have to disagree here a little bit. How many times in MO’s last few years, did we discuss on here how the Cardinals stopped just short of what they KNEW they needed to do??? A player here, a player there, and the team would have been a lot better. So, to be fair, the Cardinals have not really tried to win in a long time. All they have tried to do is win 80 some games and hopefully reach the Post Season where then anything might happen. Well, they didn’t and it hasn’t ! Under the current conditions, DeWitt isn’t going to either. It’s just too expensive to really go for it for him.
In the last decade they've only made it out of the 1st playoff round once. Suggests they were not just a move or two away in those seasons.
ecleme22 wrote: ↑21 Nov 2025 07:19 am
You can compete now by signing vets to one year deals.
No vet should be picked up by way of trading prospects, nor be the primary return for any of our trades (the exception would be an Arenado for Castellanos deal if Bloom can’t get anything for NA…).
This strategy is pro today and pro rebuild. If the team is out of it, you flip all the vets at the deadline…
ecleme22 wrote: ↑21 Nov 2025 07:19 am
You can compete now by signing vets to one year deals.
No vet should be picked up by way of trading prospects, nor be the primary return for any of our trades (the exception would be an Arenado for Castellanos deal if Bloom can’t get anything for NA…).
This strategy is pro today and pro rebuild. If the team is out of it, you flip all the vets at the deadline…
rockondlouie wrote: ↑21 Nov 2025 08:48 am
Completely wrong premise by matt.
C. Bloom already has repaired Mo's broken minor league player development system and continues to add quality people to the system.
Nothing done at the big league level can disrupt that...........THE MINOR LEAGUE SYSTEM IS NOW PRIMED to send quality players to the Cardinals!
He can now focus on dealing away veterans like NADO, S. Gray, Donny and maybe even WillyC for prospects or YOUNG MAJOR LEAGUE players with years of control............while STILL FIELDING A COMPETITVE, BUT PERHAPS NOT A PLAYOFF TEAM.
If he's able to save some payroll money dealing away those veterans contracts, then BDWJR (LIKELY) will allow him to re-invest that savings into the 2026 roster adding major league players via trades and smart, low cost free agency.
The 2026 payroll will likely settle somewhere in the $115-130M range...................NOT $200M.
If the Cardinals win 90 games or lose 90 games in 2026 how on earth does this setback the re-build?
AGAIN
THIS DOES NOTHING to disrupt the minor league system or halt the minors from funneling players to the Cardinals in this re-build!
How some can't see this is baffling.
What's baffling is that you think being competitive, while not even making the playoffs, is worth wasting recourses on. Who cares if the team wins 80 or 60 games in 2026? They're not going to compete for the league title and that's all that really matters.
I totally disagree. I would prefer to watch an 80 game winner vs. a 60 game winner any day! And nobody says you have to spend crazy money, but I will never sign up for a team that isn't trying to win and at least be worth watching. So many people here are afraid of spending a little of Bill's money and I just cannot for the life of me understand why? Signing a few decent free agents and building thru prospects can actully coincide. And yea, maybe you will only win 80 games, but at least I will have the will to at least watch. But I will not watch or spend a dime on 2019 to 2022 Pirates who averaged 60 win seasons. No thank you.
The reason the Cardinals have fallen into irrelevance is because the team did just what you suggest: they tired to keep the team nominally "competitive" even when the odds of the team winning a title were almost nothing.
Sometimes winning -- and I mean really winning not just 80 games but a ring -- requires that you step back, make sacrifices, cut away the dead wood to make room for new growth. Honestly, the Cardinals reached that point years ago, but to try to remain "competitive" they clung to over the hill stars, and traded for the twilight years of old stars, and now here we are with a team that is neither nominally "competitive" nor truly competitive.
Fans need to face facts: We are not the Yankees or Dodgers. we can't be truly competitive every year, we have to stop, step back, reload, and take another shot.
Maybe the system will change after the new CBA, but in the meantime we have to accept our reality and not try to skip steps. That will only keep us where we're at.
I kinda have to disagree here a little bit. How many times in MO’s last few years, did we discuss on here how the Cardinals stopped just short of what they KNEW they needed to do??? A player here, a player there, and the team would have been a lot better. So, to be fair, the Cardinals have not really tried to win in a long time. All they have tried to do is win 80 some games and hopefully reach the Post Season where then anything might happen. Well, they didn’t and it hasn’t ! Under the current conditions, DeWitt isn’t going to either. It’s just too expensive to really go for it for him.
In the last decade they've only made it out of the 1st playoff round once. Suggests they were not just a move or two away in those seasons.
rockondlouie wrote: ↑21 Nov 2025 08:48 am
Completely wrong premise by matt.
C. Bloom already has repaired Mo's broken minor league player development system and continues to add quality people to the system.
Nothing done at the big league level can disrupt that...........THE MINOR LEAGUE SYSTEM IS NOW PRIMED to send quality players to the Cardinals!
He can now focus on dealing away veterans like NADO, S. Gray, Donny and maybe even WillyC for prospects or YOUNG MAJOR LEAGUE players with years of control............while STILL FIELDING A COMPETITVE, BUT PERHAPS NOT A PLAYOFF TEAM.
If he's able to save some payroll money dealing away those veterans contracts, then BDWJR (LIKELY) will allow him to re-invest that savings into the 2026 roster adding major league players via trades and smart, low cost free agency.
The 2026 payroll will likely settle somewhere in the $115-130M range...................NOT $200M.
If the Cardinals win 90 games or lose 90 games in 2026 how on earth does this setback the re-build?
AGAIN
THIS DOES NOTHING to disrupt the minor league system or halt the minors from funneling players to the Cardinals in this re-build!
How some can't see this is baffling.
What's baffling is that you think being competitive, while not even making the playoffs, is worth wasting recourses on. Who cares if the team wins 80 or 60 games in 2026? They're not going to compete for the league title and that's all that really matters.
I totally disagree. I would prefer to watch an 80 game winner vs. a 60 game winner any day! And nobody says you have to spend crazy money, but I will never sign up for a team that isn't trying to win and at least be worth watching. So many people here are afraid of spending a little of Bill's money and I just cannot for the life of me understand why? Signing a few decent free agents and building thru prospects can actully coincide. And yea, maybe you will only win 80 games, but at least I will have the will to at least watch. But I will not watch or spend a dime on 2019 to 2022 Pirates who averaged 60 win seasons. No thank you.
I think the last 10 years of MO have made many forget that you can actually build a team several ways and not just one.
Agree on both points. And further, maybe Matthews or Doyle arrives in Aug/Sept and gives our staff a major boost and suddenly turns an 80 win team into an 85 win team, a playoff spot, and maybe we even win a series and play 6-7 games in October. That playoff experience could speed true playoff success up by a year or more, because its highly doubtful a completely unexperienced team would ever win it all the first year they suddenly decide to go all in and compete. Any level of playoff experience is a huge boost to a rebuilding franchise.
But you have to give it a chance at least, and not hamstring the budget so heavily that even great progress and production by what we have left isn't nearly enough. Give a winning culture a chance to "bloom".
Carp4cy and Rock I agree 1000%. People apparently forget that we won the World Series in 2006 with a record of 83-78. Why is 90-92 wins necasarily needed to "compete"? You get to the playoffs and anything can happen. Arizona won is 23 with an 84-78 record. Twins went 85-77 in 87. Does it happen often?No, but it does happen. I will take "give me a chance" anyday vs. "we got no chance for the next 5 years" approach. Again, trade all of our vets, accumulate all those "super" prospects, let them mature down on the farm, while Bill gets his check book out and buys a couple of vets to make the team at least" give me a chance" hope, while the youngins we have and the ones we receive from the traded vets percolate! Why to all the naysayers does this strategy not make sense. Don't give me "we have been doing that for the last 10 years" B.S., because that was under the direction of Bow Tie. Those 10 years should not even be discussed in the approach I just gave, because I am betting Bloom is at least competent. And if Mo would have spent wisely in those 10 years, my bet is we are not even having this discussion.
Last edited by zuck698 on 21 Nov 2025 13:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.
ecleme22 wrote: ↑21 Nov 2025 07:19 am
You can compete now by signing vets to one year deals.
No vet should be picked up by way of trading prospects, nor be the primary return for any of our trades (the exception would be an Arenado for Castellanos deal if Bloom can’t get anything for NA…).
This strategy is pro today and pro rebuild. If the team is out of it, you flip all the vets at the deadline…
Players do go to teams with the hope of being flipped.
Why? because they will be definitely going to a contender vs hopefully
picking a contender.
Sure.
But more so a player goes to a team where they think they’ll get max amount of playing time to prove themselves before re-entering FA.
There's plenty of reasons actually. The biggest being opportunity as you suggest.
There are only so many jobs and the bid spender don't always have an opening at the players
position. I may have phrased it wrong, but I was supporting your position.
rockondlouie wrote: ↑21 Nov 2025 08:48 am
Completely wrong premise by matt.
C. Bloom already has repaired Mo's broken minor league player development system and continues to add quality people to the system.
Nothing done at the big league level can disrupt that...........THE MINOR LEAGUE SYSTEM IS NOW PRIMED to send quality players to the Cardinals!
He can now focus on dealing away veterans like NADO, S. Gray, Donny and maybe even WillyC for prospects or YOUNG MAJOR LEAGUE players with years of control............while STILL FIELDING A COMPETITVE, BUT PERHAPS NOT A PLAYOFF TEAM.
If he's able to save some payroll money dealing away those veterans contracts, then BDWJR (LIKELY) will allow him to re-invest that savings into the 2026 roster adding major league players via trades and smart, low cost free agency.
The 2026 payroll will likely settle somewhere in the $115-130M range...................NOT $200M.
If the Cardinals win 90 games or lose 90 games in 2026 how on earth does this setback the re-build?
AGAIN
THIS DOES NOTHING to disrupt the minor league system or halt the minors from funneling players to the Cardinals in this re-build!
How some can't see this is baffling.
What's baffling is that you think being competitive, while not even making the playoffs, is worth wasting recourses on. Who cares if the team wins 80 or 60 games in 2026? They're not going to compete for the league title and that's all that really matters.
I totally disagree. I would prefer to watch an 80 game winner vs. a 60 game winner any day! And nobody says you have to spend crazy money, but I will never sign up for a team that isn't trying to win and at least be worth watching. So many people here are afraid of spending a little of Bill's money and I just cannot for the life of me understand why? Signing a few decent free agents and building thru prospects can actully coincide. And yea, maybe you will only win 80 games, but at least I will have the will to at least watch. But I will not watch or spend a dime on 2019 to 2022 Pirates who averaged 60 win seasons. No thank you.
I think the last 10 years of MO have made many forget that you can actually build a team several ways and not just one.
Agree on both points. And further, maybe Matthews or Doyle arrives in Aug/Sept and gives our staff a major boost and suddenly turns an 80 win team into an 85 win team, a playoff spot, and maybe we even win a series and play 6-7 games in October. That playoff experience could speed true playoff success up by a year or more, because its highly doubtful a completely unexperienced team would ever win it all the first year they suddenly decide to go all in and compete. Any level of playoff experience is a huge boost to a rebuilding franchise.
But you have to give it a chance at least, and not hamstring the budget so heavily that even great progress and production by what we have left isn't nearly enough. Give a winning culture a chance to "bloom".
Carp4cy and Rock I agree 1000%. People apparently forget that we won the World Series in 2006 with a record of 83-78. Why is 90-92 wins necasarily needed to "compete"? You get to the playoffs and anything can happen. Arizona won is 23 with an 84-78 record. Twins went 85-77 in 87. Does it happen often?No, but it does happen. I will take "give me a chance" anyday vs. "we got no chance for the next 5 years" approach. Again, trade all of our vets, accumulate all those "super" prospects, let them mature down on the farm, while Bill gets his check book out and buys a couple of vets to make the team at least" give me a chance" hope, while the youngins we have and the ones we receive from the traded vets percolate! Why to all the naysayers does this strategy not make sense. Don't give me "we have been doing that for the last 10 years" B.S., because that was under the direction of Bow Tie. Those 10 years should not even be discussed in the approach I just gave, because I am betting Bloom is at least competent. And if Mo would have spent wisely in those 10 years, my bet is we are not even having this discussion.
Rock, also about your comment on the low attendance this year, yes, it was like a ghostown more often than not. I don't understand why people are wanting to sign up for the 1970's all over again, but to each their own I guess...
zuck698 wrote: ↑21 Nov 2025 13:55 pm
Carp4cy and Rock I agree 1000%. People apparently forget that we won the World Series in 2006 with a record of 83-78. Why is 90-92 wins necasarily needed to "compete"? You get to the playoffs and anything can happen. Arizona won is 23 with an 84-78 record. Twins went 85-77 in 87. Does it happen often?No, but it does happen. I will take "give me a chance" anyday vs. "we got no chance for the next 5 years" approach. Again, trade all of our vets, accumulate all those "super" prospects, let them mature down on the farm, while Bill gets his check book out and buys a couple of vets to make the team at least" give me a chance" hope, while the youngins we have and the ones we receive from the traded vets percolate! Why to all the naysayers does this strategy not make sense. Don't give me "we have been doing that for the last 10 years" B.S., because that was under the direction of Bow Tie. Those 10 years should not even be discussed in the approach I just gave, because I am betting Bloom is at least competent. And if Mo would have spent wisely in those 10 years, my bet is we are not even having this discussion.
I'll just repeat myself, again:
I have said over and over and over again - yes, they can and like will spend a little now to get some lower level veteran players on 1 or 2 year contracts. But what I DON'T want to see them do right now is commit to more Nolan Arenados, Paul Goldschmidts, etc. 5, 6, 7 year contracts when whoever they sign now could be in significant decline in another 3 years and they would be wishing they were not handcuffed to them because they are preventing them from adding the talent they really need to get to being that 92+ win team.
Making big commitments now in order to get to your $180 million in payroll - when they aren't ready to be a really good team - may/will limit their options in the future. I don't want to them to tie their hands for 2028, 2029, 2030 just to try to field a "decent" team now.
And Arizona didn't win the WS, they eventually lost to a more talented Rangers team.
When the Cardinals won in 2006 or the Twins in 1987, there weren't multiple 50 fWAR superteams like the 2025 Dodgers, Phillies, Yankees, etc. to go through to do it.
The HAVES have more in 2025 than ever before, and the Cardinals need to bring more talent if they are going to compete with them.
ecleme22 wrote: ↑21 Nov 2025 07:19 am
You can compete now by signing vets to one year deals.
No vet should be picked up by way of trading prospects, nor be the primary return for any of our trades (the exception would be an Arenado for Castellanos deal if Bloom can’t get anything for NA…).
This strategy is pro today and pro rebuild. If the team is out of it, you flip all the vets at the deadline…
I agree with signing FAs on one year deals, but they are never going to get to being competitive in 2026 based on those additions.
So, IMO, that is not trying to compete.
Well, let's remember how bad Miko, Pallante, Arenado, Fedde and several others were. And the team was 78-84.
I don't think the 2026 team, with the addition of FA vets, will win 100 games. But 82-87 could happen. And that's competitive.
I think there's this assumption that the team will automatically be worse than 2025. I don't think that's the case.
Fortunately, the rebuild isn't starting at zero like the 2012 Cubs.
If you like what we've been getting, then follow this plan because you're simply regurgitating the teams strategy for the last decade.
You may be smarter than DeWitt and MO, not a heavy lift, but you're not bringing home any WS flags with that plan.
Name all the 1 year deals for STARTING players the Cards have signed from 2012-2025.
I'm not talking about signing one year players. I'm talking about your insistence that the team try to be "competitive" every year, even though they have almost zero chance of winning a title even if we added these players.
Instead, the team should spend that money signing some INFAs or hiring better development coaches, etc..
Well, when you sign low risk / high reward vets to one year deals, one of the reasons you do it is to flip them at the deadline to increase the prospects in your organization. Being competitive in 2026 wouldn't be the primary reason for the acquisitions...
Low risk / high reward vets are typically going to command multi-year deals, which creates more risk and makes them less flippable, unless they are really helping your team, in which case you'd hate to lose them.
Low risk meaning a low contract amount.
High reward meaning there is a potential upside.
I’d be ok taking a flyer on a 2003 Chris Carpenter type starter or two.
zuck698 wrote: ↑21 Nov 2025 13:55 pm
Carp4cy and Rock I agree 1000%. People apparently forget that we won the World Series in 2006 with a record of 83-78. Why is 90-92 wins necasarily needed to "compete"? You get to the playoffs and anything can happen. Arizona won is 23 with an 84-78 record. Twins went 85-77 in 87. Does it happen often?No, but it does happen. I will take "give me a chance" anyday vs. "we got no chance for the next 5 years" approach. Again, trade all of our vets, accumulate all those "super" prospects, let them mature down on the farm, while Bill gets his check book out and buys a couple of vets to make the team at least" give me a chance" hope, while the youngins we have and the ones we receive from the traded vets percolate! Why to all the naysayers does this strategy not make sense. Don't give me "we have been doing that for the last 10 years" B.S., because that was under the direction of Bow Tie. Those 10 years should not even be discussed in the approach I just gave, because I am betting Bloom is at least competent. And if Mo would have spent wisely in those 10 years, my bet is we are not even having this discussion.
I'll just repeat myself, again:
I have said over and over and over again - yes, they can and like will spend a little now to get some lower level veteran players on 1 or 2 year contracts. But what I DON'T want to see them do right now is commit to more Nolan Arenados, Paul Goldschmidts, etc. 5, 6, 7 year contracts when whoever they sign now could be in significant decline in another 3 years and they would be wishing they were not handcuffed to them because they are preventing them from adding the talent they really need to get to being that 92+ win team.
Making big commitments now in order to get to your $180 million in payroll - when they aren't ready to be a really good team - may/will limit their options in the future. I don't want to them to tie their hands for 2028, 2029, 2030 just to try to field a "decent" team now.
And Arizona didn't win the WS, they eventually lost to a more talented Rangers team.
When the Cardinals won in 2006 or the Twins in 1987, there weren't multiple 50 fWAR superteams like the 2025 Dodgers, Phillies, Yankees, etc. to go through to do it.
The HAVES have more in 2025 than ever before, and the Cardinals need to bring more talent if they are going to compete with them.
It doesn't need to be all or nothing. Making the NLDS by spending $ and not too many prospects would be a worthy goal, for now.
Puts butts in the seats, increases revenue, increases franchise value and borrowing capacity, increases $ available to spend in future years when we are ready to increase payroll back to top 10/11 and try to win the pennant. AND it gives the incumbants valuable playoff experience, without which from a prior year, even the perfect team of graduated prospects will likely fail in the playoffs.
zuck698 wrote: ↑21 Nov 2025 13:55 pm
Carp4cy and Rock I agree 1000%. People apparently forget that we won the World Series in 2006 with a record of 83-78. Why is 90-92 wins necasarily needed to "compete"? You get to the playoffs and anything can happen. Arizona won is 23 with an 84-78 record. Twins went 85-77 in 87. Does it happen often?No, but it does happen. I will take "give me a chance" anyday vs. "we got no chance for the next 5 years" approach. Again, trade all of our vets, accumulate all those "super" prospects, let them mature down on the farm, while Bill gets his check book out and buys a couple of vets to make the team at least" give me a chance" hope, while the youngins we have and the ones we receive from the traded vets percolate! Why to all the naysayers does this strategy not make sense. Don't give me "we have been doing that for the last 10 years" B.S., because that was under the direction of Bow Tie. Those 10 years should not even be discussed in the approach I just gave, because I am betting Bloom is at least competent. And if Mo would have spent wisely in those 10 years, my bet is we are not even having this discussion.
I'll just repeat myself, again:
I have said over and over and over again - yes, they can and like will spend a little now to get some lower level veteran players on 1 or 2 year contracts. But what I DON'T want to see them do right now is commit to more Nolan Arenados, Paul Goldschmidts, etc. 5, 6, 7 year contracts when whoever they sign now could be in significant decline in another 3 years and they would be wishing they were not handcuffed to them because they are preventing them from adding the talent they really need to get to being that 92+ win team.
Making big commitments now in order to get to your $180 million in payroll - when they aren't ready to be a really good team - may/will limit their options in the future. I don't want to them to tie their hands for 2028, 2029, 2030 just to try to field a "decent" team now.
And Arizona didn't win the WS, they eventually lost to a more talented Rangers team.
When the Cardinals won in 2006 or the Twins in 1987, there weren't multiple 50 fWAR superteams like the 2025 Dodgers, Phillies, Yankees, etc. to go through to do it.
The HAVES have more in 2025 than ever before, and the Cardinals need to bring more talent if they are going to compete with them.
I give! You win! Yours is the only right way Matt! I apoligize for even thinking otherwise!
mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑21 Nov 2025 06:08 am
Some want to gloss over this fact as they push the narrative that the Cardinals should do both - compete now and rebuild the player development organization.
But those goals are in conflict, they are not complimentary.
They obviously conflict on the very important questions of:
- Should they trade Donovan?
- Should they trade Gray?
- Should they trade Contreras?
- Maybe even should they trade Arenado?
If they are competing the answer to most/all of those is no. If they are rebuilding it is yes. You can't have it both ways.
And also on the question of:
- Who should they potentially sign as FAs and why?
If they try to compete and rebuild simultaneously, the net result will much more likely be that they will do both poorly rather than do both (or either) well.
You are correct.
Buckle up folks.
And reading quickly over the posts, there is a lot of ambiguity with the term “competitive.”
If people that .500 or slightly above is competitive, that’s a problem.
I consider it competing for the World Series. Anything else is meh. And this team is a long way from competing for the World Series.
scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑21 Nov 2025 06:57 am
Whole heartedly disagree.
They are not conflicting. You can do both. Making decisions on players isn't unique. It happens every year.
You can have it both ways..
To say otherwise shows lack of creativity and judgement.
As noted you can TRY to do both, and likely end up doing both poorly.
Why? A good GM should be able to make good decisions on both fronts. Is a premiere executive only supposed to be good at one aspect of their job and lose decision making ability when multitasking?
And why did the team pay for Bloom? They could’ve just promoted Girsch and tell Oli to lose as much as possible to get the highest draft picks.
Another major variable is opportunity. Who knows what trade scenario might emerge, or who might become available.
