Aspects of replicating the last Cardinal dynasty

[Goldfan]

If you look at what drove the Cardinals 15 years of success from 2000-2015, you see the following:

- they had Pujols as a huge "value" player from 2001 to 2011 because they signed him early to team beneficial extension
- they had Molina as a significant "value" player from 2004 to some year (I don't recall) because I think they also signed him to an early extension
- they had Matt Carpenter as a significant "value" player from at least 2011 to 2015
- Edgar Renteria who they got from Florida was in his first 6-7 yrs. from 2001 to 2002
- J.D. Drew was in his first 6-7 years from 2001 to 2003
- they got "value" years out of Jon Jay, Ryan Ludwick, David Freese, Colby Rasmus, etc.

- they really only got significant contributions from Edmonds, Rolen, and Holliday as expensive position players who they brought in from outside the organization

on the pitching side

- Wainwright, Matt Morris, Lynn, and Jaime Garcia were all major contributors
- Chris Carpenter, Woody Williams, Kyle Lohse, Darryl Kile were the biggest contributors who they really brought in from outside as established ML players

So the majority of the production from 2000-2015 was driven, not surprisingly, by players they brought up through their player development system and who gave them a significant amount of "below market value" production for 6-10 years so that they could afford to supplement them by paying Edmonds, Rolen, Holliday, Lohse, Chris Carpenter, etc. to fill in a few holes.

In 2026, they can't count on producing another Pujols. But they need to work toward having at least three (Winn?, Wetherholt?, Doyle?) All-Star level young "value" players on the roster as the starting point for building another great team around.

Matt, I think you misremember. Those Jocketty team were primarily Players from the outside
Vina, Lankford 2nd time, Tino, Womack, Sanders, Suppan, Izzy, Walker
2004 squad
Matheny
Pujols
Womack
Renteria
Rolen
Lankford/Walker
Edmonds
Sanders

Pujols is the only homegrown player in starting lineup

SP
Carp
Suppan
Williams
Marquis
Morris
Top 3 Pitchers were outsiders.
CL
Izzy FA

[Goldfan]

If you look at what drove the Cardinals 15 years of success from 2000-2015, you see the following:

- they had Pujols as a huge "value" player from 2001 to 2011 because they signed him early to team beneficial extension
- they had Molina as a significant "value" player from 2004 to some year (I don't recall) because I think they also signed him to an early extension
- they had Matt Carpenter as a significant "value" player from at least 2011 to 2015
- Edgar Renteria who they got from Florida was in his first 6-7 yrs. from 2001 to 2002
- J.D. Drew was in his first 6-7 years from 2001 to 2003
- they got "value" years out of Jon Jay, Ryan Ludwick, David Freese, Colby Rasmus, etc.

- they really only got significant contributions from Edmonds, Rolen, and Holliday as expensive position players who they brought in from outside the organization

on the pitching side

- Wainwright, Matt Morris, Lynn, and Jaime Garcia were all major contributors
- Chris Carpenter, Woody Williams, Kyle Lohse, Darryl Kile were the biggest contributors who they really brought in from outside as established ML players

So the majority of the production from 2000-2015 was driven, not surprisingly, by players they brought up through their player development system and who gave them a significant amount of "below market value" production for 6-10 years so that they could afford to supplement them by paying Edmonds, Rolen, Holliday, Lohse, Chris Carpenter, etc. to fill in a few holes.

In 2026, they can't count on producing another Pujols. But they need to work toward having at least three (Winn?, Wetherholt?, Doyle?) All-Star level young "value" players on the roster as the starting point for building another great team around.

Matt, I think you misremember. Those Jocketty team were primarily Players from the outside
Vina, Lankford 2nd time, Tino, Womack, Sanders, Suppan, Izzy, Walker
2004 squad
Matheny
Pujols
Womack
Renteria
Rolen
Lankford/Walker
Edmonds
Sanders

Pujols is the only homegrown player in starting lineup

SP
Carp
Suppan
Williams
Marquis
Morris
Top 3 Pitchers were outsiders.
CL
Izzy FA

2006
Molina
AP
Miles/Belliard
Eckstein
Rolen
Taguchi
Edmonds
Encarnacion
Spezio
2 players are homegrown in Starting lineup

SP
Carp
Marquis
Suppan
Mulder
Reyes
Weaver
2 SP Homegrown

[scoutyjones2]

Living in the past isn't healthy or helpful

[Goldfan]

And 2011 had half the lineup Homegrown with
ONE Homegrown SP

So all the WS and success seen under TLR/Dunc were mostly from FA/Trades riding the HOF hammer of Pujols

[Goldfan]

Living in the past isn't healthy or helpful

True but it needs to be recounted accurately

[mattmitchl44]

If you look at what drove the Cardinals 15 years of success from 2000-2015, you see the following:

- they had Pujols as a huge "value" player from 2001 to 2011 because they signed him early to team beneficial extension
- they had Molina as a significant "value" player from 2004 to some year (I don't recall) because I think they also signed him to an early extension
- they had Matt Carpenter as a significant "value" player from at least 2011 to 2015
- Edgar Renteria who they got from Florida was in his first 6-7 yrs. from 2001 to 2002
- J.D. Drew was in his first 6-7 years from 2001 to 2003
- they got "value" years out of Jon Jay, Ryan Ludwick, David Freese, Colby Rasmus, etc.

- they really only got significant contributions from Edmonds, Rolen, and Holliday as expensive position players who they brought in from outside the organization

on the pitching side

- Wainwright, Matt Morris, Lynn, and Jaime Garcia were all major contributors
- Chris Carpenter, Woody Williams, Kyle Lohse, Darryl Kile were the biggest contributors who they really brought in from outside as established ML players

So the majority of the production from 2000-2015 was driven, not surprisingly, by players they brought up through their player development system and who gave them a significant amount of "below market value" production for 6-10 years so that they could afford to supplement them by paying Edmonds, Rolen, Holliday, Lohse, Chris Carpenter, etc. to fill in a few holes.

In 2026, they can't count on producing another Pujols. But they need to work toward having at least three (Winn?, Wetherholt?, Doyle?) All-Star level young "value" players on the roster as the starting point for building another great team around.

Matt, I think you misremember. Those Jocketty team were primarily Players from the outside
Vina, Lankford 2nd time, Tino, Womack, Sanders, Suppan, Izzy, Walker
2004 squad
Matheny
Pujols
Womack
Renteria
Rolen
Lankford/Walker
Edmonds
Sanders

Pujols is the only homegrown player in starting lineup

SP
Carp
Suppan
Williams
Marquis
Morris
Top 3 Pitchers were outsiders.
CL
Izzy FA

There were lots of limited role players that I left out. I captured those who were the greatest contributors (by fWAR) across the 15 year span. I stopped at about 7.6 fWAR for position players and 5.5 fWAR for pitchers.

Pujols, Molina, M. Carpenter, Renteria (who was cost controlled), Drew, Jay, Ludwick, Freese, and Rasmus accounted for 47.5% of the Cardinals position player value from 2000-2015.

Wainwright, Morris, J. Garcia, and Lynn accounted for 34.7% of the Cardinals pitcher value from 2000-2015.

I wasn't going to list all 308 position players and 176 pitchers that were on the Cardinals roster from 2000 to 2015.

I should have said

So a significant amount of the production from 2000-2015 was driven, not surprisingly, by players they brought up through their player development system and who gave them a significant amount of "below market value" production for 6-10 years so that they could afford to supplement them by paying Edmonds, Rolen, Holliday, Lohse, Chris Carpenter, etc. to fill in a few holes.

[11WSChamps]

And 2011 had half the lineup Homegrown with
ONE Homegrown SP

So all the WS and success seen under TLR/Dunc were mostly from FA/Trades riding the HOF hammer of Pujols

You can lead a horse to water.....

[ClassicO]

Let’s look at what the Cardinals currently have.

1B- Contreras/ Burleson
2B- Donovan/Wetherholt/Saggese/Gorman
SS- Winn
3B-Donovan/Wetherholt/Saggese/Gorman. Not considering Arenado
C- Herrera/Pages/Crooks/Bernal
LF- Nootbaar/Burleson/Church
CF- Scott/Church
RF-Walker/Burleson/Church
Bench - Fermin plus those listed

The obvious need here is a strong right hand hitting bat that can play outfield and/or DH

SP- Gray - Liberatore - McGreevey - Pallante - Leahy/Mathews/Doyle/Mautz

Pretty obvious that at least one top of the rotation arm is needed, and probably one middle. Those two additions would eliminate Pallante and that young group of arms, who become depth at AAA or bullpen additions.

I would add Maton back to the bullpen, and possibly Helsley. ( Ryan really wants to play in St. Louis) I’d find out what a one year deal would look like!

So, adding one bat, two starters, and possibly two relievers is all I believe is needed. With JJ you are actually adding two bats!
With this line up Scott and Walker have to improve. That is possible, but relies on those players willing to make the necessary adjustments. That’s the big question.

To acquire the players I’ve specified, the Cardinals have Contreras, Nootbaar, Arenado, Gorman, catching depth, and several minor players to get it done.
Helsley, Maton, and a top starter will require money.
To me, this is absolutely doable without taking years to be competitive again!

Ok, fire away and tell me HOW wrong I am!

The only issue I have is this thought that it won't take "years to be competitive again." It will. And spending a lot of money on any top-tier FAs is not wise until they develop a young core. They especially can't spend a lot on Helsley, who doesn't make them a ton better even if he turns it around.
Also, Scott will never be a regular CF who can help the Cards get to a WS (the only goal).

[renostl]

If you look at what drove the Cardinals 15 years of success from 2000-2015, you see the following:

- they had Pujols as a huge "value" player from 2001 to 2011 because they signed him early to team beneficial extension
- they had Molina as a significant "value" player from 2004 to some year (I don't recall) because I think they also signed him to an early extension
- they had Matt Carpenter as a significant "value" player from at least 2011 to 2015
- Edgar Renteria who they got from Florida was in his first 6-7 yrs. from 2001 to 2002
- J.D. Drew was in his first 6-7 years from 2001 to 2003
- they got "value" years out of Jon Jay, Ryan Ludwick, David Freese, Colby Rasmus, etc.

- they really only got significant contributions from Edmonds, Rolen, and Holliday as expensive position players who they brought in from outside the organization

on the pitching side

- Wainwright, Matt Morris, Lynn, and Jaime Garcia were all major contributors
- Chris Carpenter, Woody Williams, Kyle Lohse, Darryl Kile were the biggest contributors who they really brought in from outside as established ML players

So the majority of the production from 2000-2015 was driven, not surprisingly, by players they brought up through their player development system and who gave them a significant amount of "below market value" production for 6-10 years so that they could afford to supplement them by paying Edmonds, Rolen, Holliday, Lohse, Chris Carpenter, etc. to fill in a few holes.

In 2026, they can't count on producing another Pujols. But they need to work toward having at least three (Winn?, Wetherholt?, Doyle?) All-Star level young "value" players on the roster as the starting point for building another great team around.

Matt, I think you misremember. Those Jocketty team were primarily Players from the outside
Vina, Lankford 2nd time, Tino, Womack, Sanders, Suppan, Izzy, Walker
2004 squad
Matheny
Pujols
Womack
Renteria
Rolen
Lankford/Walker
Edmonds
Sanders

Pujols is the only homegrown player in starting lineup

SP
Carp
Suppan
Williams
Marquis
Morris
Top 3 Pitchers were outsiders.
CL
Izzy FA

There were lots of limited role players that I left out. I captured those who were the greatest contributors (by fWAR) across the 15 year span. I stopped at about 7.6 fWAR for position players and 5.5 fWAR for pitchers.

Pujols, Molina, M. Carpenter, Renteria (who was cost controlled), Drew, Jay, Ludwick, Freese, and Rasmus accounted for 47.5% of the Cardinals position player value from 2000-2015.

Wainwright, Morris, J. Garcia, and Lynn accounted for 34.7% of the Cardinals pitcher value from 2000-2015.

I wasn't going to list all 308 position players and 176 pitchers that were on the Cardinals roster from 2000 to 2015.

I should have said

So a significant amount of the production from 2000-2015 was driven, not surprisingly, by players they brought up through their player development system and who gave them a significant amount of "below market value" production for 6-10 years so that they could afford to supplement them by paying Edmonds, Rolen, Holliday, Lohse, Chris Carpenter, etc. to fill in a few holes.

Edgar was obtained at a very young 22 y/o, Rolen 27, Edmonds 30.
Trades IMO, are not very predictable and can drastically change the dynamics of
the process.

The team could be best served by being open to both paths. It still allows for youth to emerge.
After all it is counted on to some extent in both paths. Just isn't being waited on to emerge.


A trade proposal heard here in a couple threads have Donovan+ for Pages in LAD. Unrealistic perhaps
but something that moves the dynamic of the team can have a drastic change. A 25 y/o who can do 27 HR's
in this OF changes the OF. Ward was just obtained for SP prospect with question marks. A lesser player than Edmonds for sure
however the dynamic is similar. The dynamic is often available. Teams move on from players for many reasons.

You know all this. You know the numbers better than I. IF there wasn't these variables more
teams would choose a single path. They all also fail. You can wait so long that you only get a 2 year window
with JJ, Doyle, and Winn.

Most importantly though was Albert, as others mentioned.

Yadi, Waino even at the HOF ish level wouldn't move the needle without Albert.

[renostl]

Let’s look at what the Cardinals currently have.

1B- Contreras/ Burleson
2B- Donovan/Wetherholt/Saggese/Gorman
SS- Winn
3B-Donovan/Wetherholt/Saggese/Gorman. Not considering Arenado
C- Herrera/Pages/Crooks/Bernal
LF- Nootbaar/Burleson/Church
CF- Scott/Church
RF-Walker/Burleson/Church
Bench - Fermin plus those listed

The obvious need here is a strong right hand hitting bat that can play outfield and/or DH

SP- Gray - Liberatore - McGreevey - Pallante - Leahy/Mathews/Doyle/Mautz

Pretty obvious that at least one top of the rotation arm is needed, and probably one middle. Those two additions would eliminate Pallante and that young group of arms, who become depth at AAA or bullpen additions.

I would add Maton back to the bullpen, and possibly Helsley. ( Ryan really wants to play in St. Louis) I’d find out what a one year deal would look like!

So, adding one bat, two starters, and possibly two relievers is all I believe is needed. With JJ you are actually adding two bats!
With this line up Scott and Walker have to improve. That is possible, but relies on those players willing to make the necessary adjustments. That’s the big question.

To acquire the players I’ve specified, the Cardinals have Contreras, Nootbaar, Arenado, Gorman, catching depth, and several minor players to get it done.
Helsley, Maton, and a top starter will require money.
To me, this is absolutely doable without taking years to be competitive again!

Ok, fire away and tell me HOW wrong I am!

The only issue I have is this thought that it won't take "years to be competitive again." It will. And spending a lot of money on any top-tier FAs is not wise until they develop a young core. They especially can't spend a lot on Helsley, who doesn't make them a ton better even if he turns it around.
Also, Scott will never be a regular CF who can help the Cards get to a WS (the only goal).

Wasn't most of the outside players during those comparisons years
obtained by trade not top tier FA spending?

IF they are methodical in the process, I agree that it will take years.
That is a choice though and to some extent an self-fulfilling prophecy.

[ClassicO]

Let’s look at what the Cardinals currently have.

1B- Contreras/ Burleson
2B- Donovan/Wetherholt/Saggese/Gorman
SS- Winn
3B-Donovan/Wetherholt/Saggese/Gorman. Not considering Arenado
C- Herrera/Pages/Crooks/Bernal
LF- Nootbaar/Burleson/Church
CF- Scott/Church
RF-Walker/Burleson/Church
Bench - Fermin plus those listed

The obvious need here is a strong right hand hitting bat that can play outfield and/or DH

SP- Gray - Liberatore - McGreevey - Pallante - Leahy/Mathews/Doyle/Mautz

Pretty obvious that at least one top of the rotation arm is needed, and probably one middle. Those two additions would eliminate Pallante and that young group of arms, who become depth at AAA or bullpen additions.

I would add Maton back to the bullpen, and possibly Helsley. ( Ryan really wants to play in St. Louis) I’d find out what a one year deal would look like!

So, adding one bat, two starters, and possibly two relievers is all I believe is needed. With JJ you are actually adding two bats!
With this line up Scott and Walker have to improve. That is possible, but relies on those players willing to make the necessary adjustments. That’s the big question.

To acquire the players I’ve specified, the Cardinals have Contreras, Nootbaar, Arenado, Gorman, catching depth, and several minor players to get it done.
Helsley, Maton, and a top starter will require money.
To me, this is absolutely doable without taking years to be competitive again!

Ok, fire away and tell me HOW wrong I am!

The only issue I have is this thought that it won't take "years to be competitive again." It will. And spending a lot of money on any top-tier FAs is not wise until they develop a young core. They especially can't spend a lot on Helsley, who doesn't make them a ton better even if he turns it around.
Also, Scott will never be a regular CF who can help the Cards get to a WS (the only goal).

Wasn't most of the outside players during those comparisons years
obtained by trade not top tier FA spending?

IF they are methodical in the process, I agree that it will take years.
That is a choice though and to some extent an self-fulfilling prophecy.

As I've said before, relying only on the draft won't win a WS anymore. The past 6 years has seen key, top-tier FAs help win a WS (e.g. LA, Astros, Cubs, Rangers) or get there (Toronto). The Cards need to wait but if they want another WS, they have to buy one in part. The other key is international scouting for affordable IFAs - which they should be doing now and constantly.

[renostl]

Let’s look at what the Cardinals currently have.

1B- Contreras/ Burleson
2B- Donovan/Wetherholt/Saggese/Gorman
SS- Winn
3B-Donovan/Wetherholt/Saggese/Gorman. Not considering Arenado
C- Herrera/Pages/Crooks/Bernal
LF- Nootbaar/Burleson/Church
CF- Scott/Church
RF-Walker/Burleson/Church
Bench - Fermin plus those listed

The obvious need here is a strong right hand hitting bat that can play outfield and/or DH

SP- Gray - Liberatore - McGreevey - Pallante - Leahy/Mathews/Doyle/Mautz

Pretty obvious that at least one top of the rotation arm is needed, and probably one middle. Those two additions would eliminate Pallante and that young group of arms, who become depth at AAA or bullpen additions.

I would add Maton back to the bullpen, and possibly Helsley. ( Ryan really wants to play in St. Louis) I’d find out what a one year deal would look like!

So, adding one bat, two starters, and possibly two relievers is all I believe is needed. With JJ you are actually adding two bats!
With this line up Scott and Walker have to improve. That is possible, but relies on those players willing to make the necessary adjustments. That’s the big question.

To acquire the players I’ve specified, the Cardinals have Contreras, Nootbaar, Arenado, Gorman, catching depth, and several minor players to get it done.
Helsley, Maton, and a top starter will require money.
To me, this is absolutely doable without taking years to be competitive again!

Ok, fire away and tell me HOW wrong I am!

The only issue I have is this thought that it won't take "years to be competitive again." It will. And spending a lot of money on any top-tier FAs is not wise until they develop a young core. They especially can't spend a lot on Helsley, who doesn't make them a ton better even if he turns it around.
Also, Scott will never be a regular CF who can help the Cards get to a WS (the only goal).

Wasn't most of the outside players during those comparisons years
obtained by trade not top tier FA spending?

IF they are methodical in the process, I agree that it will take years.
That is a choice though and to some extent an self-fulfilling prophecy.

As I've said before, relying only on the draft won't win a WS anymore. The past 6 years has seen key, top-tier FAs help win a WS (e.g. LA, Astros, Cubs, Rangers) or get there (Toronto). The Cards need to wait but if they want another WS, they have to buy one in part. The other key is international scouting for affordable IFAs - which they should be doing now and constantly.

It is less about debate and more about discussion. Appreciate that.
Agreement though that the draft doesn't work alone.

Trades, even trades at the TD for a rental has a valid spot and little long-term commitment
depending on what is lost. Compared to top tier FA though probably a better choice for
mid-market teams.

[Carp4Cy]

If you look at what drove the Cardinals 15 years of success from 2000-2015, you see the following:

- they had Pujols as a huge "value" player from 2001 to 2011 because they signed him early to team beneficial extension
- they had Molina as a significant "value" player from 2004 to some year (I don't recall) because I think they also signed him to an early extension
- they had Matt Carpenter as a significant "value" player from at least 2011 to 2015
- Edgar Renteria who they got from Florida was in his first 6-7 yrs. from 2001 to 2002
- J.D. Drew was in his first 6-7 years from 2001 to 2003
- they got "value" years out of Jon Jay, Ryan Ludwick, David Freese, Colby Rasmus, etc.

- they really only got significant contributions from Edmonds, Rolen, and Holliday as expensive position players who they brought in from outside the organization

on the pitching side

- Wainwright, Matt Morris, Lynn, and Jaime Garcia were all major contributors
- Chris Carpenter, Woody Williams, Kyle Lohse, Darryl Kile were the biggest contributors who they really brought in from outside as established ML players

So the majority of the production from 2000-2015 was driven, not surprisingly, by players they brought up through their player development system and who gave them a significant amount of "below market value" production for 6-10 years so that they could afford to supplement them by paying Edmonds, Rolen, Holliday, Lohse, Chris Carpenter, etc. to fill in a few holes.

In 2026, they can't count on producing another Pujols. But they need to work toward having at least three (Winn?, Wetherholt?, Doyle?) All-Star level young "value" players on the roster as the starting point for building another great team around.

Would Bloom have made that trade of a first round pick Looper for a proven young Renteria?

Would he still make that move now? We are in a fairly similar situation to the 98/99 offseason - aging HOF vet on their way out, a couple unproven prospects on the brink but not yet proven? Can you imaging giving up a first round pick and more for a 22 yo AS? That's super risky - will Bloom take those high risk/high reward moves or just be super conservative with prospects and never let them go?

[mattmitchl44]

Would Bloom have made that trade of a first round pick Looper for a proven young Renteria?

Would he still make that move now? We are in a fairly similar situation to the 98/99 offseason - aging HOF vet on their way out, a couple unproven prospects on the brink but not yet proven? Can you imaging giving up a first round pick and more for a 22 yo AS? That's super risky - will Bloom take those high risk/high reward moves or just be super conservative with prospects and never let them go?

Let's be clear - from where the Cardinals are right now, trading for ML-ready prospects or trading for young players who have seen the majors but have 4 or 5 years of team control is basically the same thing. No one has any problem with Bloom focusing on obtaining such players/prospects.

What Bloom shouldn't - and almost certainly won't - be doing is obtaining more veteran players who are 30, 31, 32, etc. by trade or FA signing who are on expensive, long term contracts. Signing/trading for guys around 30 who can be had on relatively cheap 1-2 year contracts, fine. But no expensive, long term commitments should be taken on right now.

[rockondlouie]

What Bloom shouldn't - and almost certainly won't - be doing is obtaining more veteran players who are 30, 31, 32, etc. by trade or FA signing who are on expensive, long term contracts. Signing/trading for guys around 30 who can be had on relatively cheap 1-2 year contracts, fine. But no expensive, long term commitments should be taken on right now.

+1

The only players in that age group he brings in could be RP's on one or two year deals.

He may have to add a one year starting pitcher in that age group for 2026, perhaps one coming off an injury?

[Carp4Cy]

What Bloom shouldn't - and almost certainly won't - be doing is obtaining more veteran players who are 30, 31, 32, etc. by trade or FA signing who are on expensive, long term contracts. Signing/trading for guys around 30 who can be had on relatively cheap 1-2 year contracts, fine. But no expensive, long term commitments should be taken on right now.

+1

The only players in that age group he brings in could be RP's on one or two year deals.

He may have to add a one year starting pitcher in that age group for 2026, perhaps one coming off an injury?

Wacha could be terrific, provided we don't have to give up to much to get him. Reverse salary dump?