Going to WAR...for Classic0

[ScotchMIrish]

Herrera doesn't get a higher WAR because he can DH. He has to hit enough to overcome the massive positional adjustment for the DH (-17.5 runs) compared to catcher (+12.5 runs) over a full season. That's 30 runs or 3 WAR he loses if he hit exactly the same over a full season playing DH vs. playing catcher. Is his defense at catcher -30 runs bad? We don't know. For his career he has -10 DRS at catcher, in 721 innings (80 games) which is about half a season, if catcher's played all 162 games, which they don't. If you merely extrapolated his defensive metrics across a full season he'd come out ahead as a catcher by 10 runs (+30 positional adjustment, -20 DRS), or 1 WAR.

Statcast defensive metrics have him at -3 runs over his career (80 games) so he'd be losing even more value at DH if you don't trust DRS.

Herrera's numbers while in the DH spot should absolutely be counted. He if played half a year at DH and half at catcher he'd get half the DH positional adjustment (-17.5/2 = -9 runs) and half the catcher positional adjustment (+12.5/2 = +6 runs) for a total positional adjustment of -3 runs (-2.5 to be exact).

Things that aid the other teams offense (stealing bases, advancing on passed balls, etc.) are factored into the catching defense portion of WAR.

But he is one of if not the worst catcher in MLB. Why would he get +12.5? He isn't a baseball player. He is a batter.

Not trashing Herrera just pointing out the fraud of WAR.

Sorry, maybe I didn't phrase that well, or explained it poorly.

The positional adjustment between catcher and DH over a full season is 30 runs, or 3 WAR. But that's for an average defensive catcher which we know Herrera is not. In order for his WAR to be better off with him DH-ing full time instead of catching he'd have to give back 30 runs defensively. As I showed depending on the defensive metric source you prefer he's been -10 runs or -3 runs in his career over 80 games behind the plate. If he played catcher half the time and DH half the time he'd need to be -15 runs defensively at catcher in 80 games to be worse off.

He gets the prorated +12.5 because playing catcher is hard. Really hard. From there a player can gain (like Yadi) or lose (like Herrera) defensive value, but +12.5 is the starting point for catcher and -17.5 is the starting point for a DH.

If Herrera's career was a season he'd get +6.25 for the 80 games he caught, and then -10 (or -3) runs for being bad defensively, for a net -3.75 (or +3.25) runs defensively. Then you'd do the same for the games he was a DH -17.5 runs x (# of games at DH) / 162, then you'd add those two together.

Again, this isn't a problem with WAR, and this is actually a great example of a question that WAR is useful in answering. Are the Cardinals better off with Herrera at DH or catcher? It depends on his own performance at catcher (and how much you believe those defensive metrics in small samples, he's got a terrible arm though) and the team's depth at both positions.

Hard for me to believe that defensive number. They have a player struggling to stay above the Mendoza line at catcher instead of Herrera.

I stick with my belief offense while DH should not be figured into WAR.

[An Old Friend]

Herrera doesn't get a higher WAR because he can DH. He has to hit enough to overcome the massive positional adjustment for the DH (-17.5 runs) compared to catcher (+12.5 runs) over a full season. That's 30 runs or 3 WAR he loses if he hit exactly the same over a full season playing DH vs. playing catcher. Is his defense at catcher -30 runs bad? We don't know. For his career he has -10 DRS at catcher, in 721 innings (80 games) which is about half a season, if catcher's played all 162 games, which they don't. If you merely extrapolated his defensive metrics across a full season he'd come out ahead as a catcher by 10 runs (+30 positional adjustment, -20 DRS), or 1 WAR.

Statcast defensive metrics have him at -3 runs over his career (80 games) so he'd be losing even more value at DH if you don't trust DRS.

Herrera's numbers while in the DH spot should absolutely be counted. He if played half a year at DH and half at catcher he'd get half the DH positional adjustment (-17.5/2 = -9 runs) and half the catcher positional adjustment (+12.5/2 = +6 runs) for a total positional adjustment of -3 runs (-2.5 to be exact).

Things that aid the other teams offense (stealing bases, advancing on passed balls, etc.) are factored into the catching defense portion of WAR.

But he is one of if not the worst catcher in MLB. Why would he get +12.5? He isn't a baseball player. He is a batter.

Not trashing Herrera just pointing out the fraud of WAR.

Sorry, maybe I didn't phrase that well, or explained it poorly.

The positional adjustment between catcher and DH over a full season is 30 runs, or 3 WAR. But that's for an average defensive catcher which we know Herrera is not. In order for his WAR to be better off with him DH-ing full time instead of catching he'd have to give back 30 runs defensively. As I showed depending on the defensive metric source you prefer he's been -10 runs or -3 runs in his career over 80 games behind the plate. If he played catcher half the time and DH half the time he'd need to be -15 runs defensively at catcher in 80 games to be worse off.

He gets the prorated +12.5 because playing catcher is hard. Really hard. From there a player can gain (like Yadi) or lose (like Herrera) defensive value, but +12.5 is the starting point for catcher and -17.5 is the starting point for a DH.

If Herrera's career was a season he'd get +6.25 for the 80 games he caught, and then -10 (or -3) runs for being bad defensively, for a net -3.75 (or +3.25) runs defensively. Then you'd do the same for the games he was a DH -17.5 runs x (# of games at DH) / 162, then you'd add those two together.

Again, this isn't a problem with WAR, and this is actually a great example of a question that WAR is useful in answering. Are the Cardinals better off with Herrera at DH or catcher? It depends on his own performance at catcher (and how much you believe those defensive metrics in small samples, he's got a terrible arm though) and the team's depth at both positions.

Hard for me to believe that defensive number. They have a player struggling to stay above the Mendoza line at catcher instead of Herrera.

I stick with my belief offense while DH should not be figured into WAR.

Think of DH as “offensive player”. Why would you not consider that player’s offense when measuring their value or impact on the team?

[Melville]

still crickets from Melville. Awkward.

Sorry to keep you waiting, my old friend.
Unlike many here, I am not retired (though I am old enough to do so I suppose, I believe it is immoral to retire while one can still contribute to society at a high level).
I enjoy the competition of outperforming folks half my age - and enjoy even more how much I can teach (much like I do here).
Still have a few more years to put in before I move on to the next phase of life.
Which means, that while I am fully aware that many hang on my every word and am always willing to fulfill that need, sometimes folks simply need to be patient.
Sometimes hours.
Sometimes days.
Now, how can I help you?

Who are you taking?
Player A - 34 HR, 133 RBI, 104 Runs, 6 SB, 321 total bases in 151 games
Player B - 26 HR, 84 RBI, 97 Runs, 24 SB, 286 total bases in 162 games

That is easy.
What position does each play?
And at which of those 2 positions do I have a need on my roster?
What is the age of each?
How many years of control do I get from either one?
Are both FA's - or can I trade for one?
If the answers are exactly the same for both, I take A.
But if neither fit what my roster needs, I don't take either one.
Worth noting that WAR is of zero help with any of those questions.

So you changed your answer from before.

They’re both outfielders.

I have you down for A.

Player A is 1999 Dante Bichette, -2.3 bWAR
Player B is 1999 Andruw Jones, 7.1 bWAR

So you both took a player who was nearly 9 WAR less valuable.

Thank you for playing.

I do appreciate your admission that you are playing games.
So disappointing.
Normally you are a quality poster.
Yet here you are dissembling and obfuscating.
Not sure what it is about this topic that brings out the character weaknesses in some (doubtless related to the weakness of their position).
Your prevarication above should be beneath you - but sadly that is not the case.
In 1999 Bichette turned 36 - and was a left fielder.
That year Jones turned 22 - and was a CF.
As you knew full well before posting your childishness above, I stated that the determination would include a number of factors, including:
What position does each play?
What is the age of each?
How many years of control do I get from either one?
How loathsome of you to pretend these were not determinative factors in my answer.
Be better.
I am optimistic that you can.

[Goldfan]

still crickets from Melville. Awkward.

Sorry to keep you waiting, my old friend.
Unlike many here, I am not retired (though I am old enough to do so I suppose, I believe it is immoral to retire while one can still contribute to society at a high level).
I enjoy the competition of outperforming folks half my age - and enjoy even more how much I can teach (much like I do here).
Still have a few more years to put in before I move on to the next phase of life.
Which means, that while I am fully aware that many hang on my every word and am always willing to fulfill that need, sometimes folks simply need to be patient.
Sometimes hours.
Sometimes days.
Now, how can I help you?

Who are you taking?
Player A - 34 HR, 133 RBI, 104 Runs, 6 SB, 321 total bases in 151 games
Player B - 26 HR, 84 RBI, 97 Runs, 24 SB, 286 total bases in 162 games

That is easy.
What position does each play?
And at which of those 2 positions do I have a need on my roster?
What is the age of each?
How many years of control do I get from either one?
Are both FA's - or can I trade for one?
If the answers are exactly the same for both, I take A.
But if neither fit what my roster needs, I don't take either one.
Worth noting that WAR is of zero help with any of those questions.

So you changed your answer from before.

They’re both outfielders.

I have you down for A.

Player A is 1999 Dante Bichette, -2.3 bWAR
Player B is 1999 Andruw Jones, 7.1 bWAR

So you both took a player who was nearly 9 WAR less valuable.

Thank you for playing.

And this proves that WAR is reliable stat for proving a players value?

[An Old Friend]

still crickets from Melville. Awkward.

Sorry to keep you waiting, my old friend.
Unlike many here, I am not retired (though I am old enough to do so I suppose, I believe it is immoral to retire while one can still contribute to society at a high level).
I enjoy the competition of outperforming folks half my age - and enjoy even more how much I can teach (much like I do here).
Still have a few more years to put in before I move on to the next phase of life.
Which means, that while I am fully aware that many hang on my every word and am always willing to fulfill that need, sometimes folks simply need to be patient.
Sometimes hours.
Sometimes days.
Now, how can I help you?

Who are you taking?
Player A - 34 HR, 133 RBI, 104 Runs, 6 SB, 321 total bases in 151 games
Player B - 26 HR, 84 RBI, 97 Runs, 24 SB, 286 total bases in 162 games

That is easy.
What position does each play?
And at which of those 2 positions do I have a need on my roster?
What is the age of each?
How many years of control do I get from either one?
Are both FA's - or can I trade for one?
If the answers are exactly the same for both, I take A.
But if neither fit what my roster needs, I don't take either one.
Worth noting that WAR is of zero help with any of those questions.

So you changed your answer from before.

They’re both outfielders.

I have you down for A.

Player A is 1999 Dante Bichette, -2.3 bWAR
Player B is 1999 Andruw Jones, 7.1 bWAR

So you both took a player who was nearly 9 WAR less valuable.

Thank you for playing.

I do appreciate your admission that you are playing games.
So disappointing.
Normally you are a quality poster.
Yet here you are dissembling and obfuscating.
Not sure what it is about this topic that brings out the character weaknesses in some (doubtless related to the weakness of their position).
Your prevarication above should be beneath you - but sadly that is not the case.
In 1999 Bichette turned 36 - and was a left fielder.
That year Jones turned 22 - and was a CF.
As you knew full well before posting your childishness above, I stated that the determination would include a number of factors, including:
What position does each play?
What is the age of each?
How many years of control do I get from either one?
How loathsome of you to pretend these were not determinative factors in my answer.
Be better.
I am optimistic that you can.

Was simply proving two points that you and Goldfan had challenged… that defense matters, and that value cannot simply be determined by runs / homeruns / rbi / total bases as was suggested in the Carpenter vs Heyward discussion.

And you, here, acknowledge that there is more to a player’s value than simply the counting stats… which WAR helps to consolidate.

Yes, I intentionally painted you into a corner, but sometimes it takes an example like that for people to finally get it.

[An Old Friend]

still crickets from Melville. Awkward.

Sorry to keep you waiting, my old friend.
Unlike many here, I am not retired (though I am old enough to do so I suppose, I believe it is immoral to retire while one can still contribute to society at a high level).
I enjoy the competition of outperforming folks half my age - and enjoy even more how much I can teach (much like I do here).
Still have a few more years to put in before I move on to the next phase of life.
Which means, that while I am fully aware that many hang on my every word and am always willing to fulfill that need, sometimes folks simply need to be patient.
Sometimes hours.
Sometimes days.
Now, how can I help you?

Who are you taking?
Player A - 34 HR, 133 RBI, 104 Runs, 6 SB, 321 total bases in 151 games
Player B - 26 HR, 84 RBI, 97 Runs, 24 SB, 286 total bases in 162 games

That is easy.
What position does each play?
And at which of those 2 positions do I have a need on my roster?
What is the age of each?
How many years of control do I get from either one?
Are both FA's - or can I trade for one?
If the answers are exactly the same for both, I take A.
But if neither fit what my roster needs, I don't take either one.
Worth noting that WAR is of zero help with any of those questions.

So you changed your answer from before.

They’re both outfielders.

I have you down for A.

Player A is 1999 Dante Bichette, -2.3 bWAR
Player B is 1999 Andruw Jones, 7.1 bWAR

So you both took a player who was nearly 9 WAR less valuable.

Thank you for playing.

And this proves that WAR is reliable stat for proving a players value?

Bichette’s counting stats were buoyed by Colorado. He had a 102 OPS+.

His defense in left field was so historically abysmal that it wiped out all of his offensive contribution and then some.

Meanwhile, Jones had a strong offensive season and was one of the best defensive center fielders of all time.

At face value of counting stats alone, you identified a far worse baseball player as the one you’d rather have. That’s kind of the point… because if you’d seen their WAR, as well, you might’ve been inclined to lean in to see what drove that massive difference in value when your mind told you it HAD to be player A

[Goldfan]

still crickets from Melville. Awkward.

Sorry to keep you waiting, my old friend.
Unlike many here, I am not retired (though I am old enough to do so I suppose, I believe it is immoral to retire while one can still contribute to society at a high level).
I enjoy the competition of outperforming folks half my age - and enjoy even more how much I can teach (much like I do here).
Still have a few more years to put in before I move on to the next phase of life.
Which means, that while I am fully aware that many hang on my every word and am always willing to fulfill that need, sometimes folks simply need to be patient.
Sometimes hours.
Sometimes days.
Now, how can I help you?

Who are you taking?
Player A - 34 HR, 133 RBI, 104 Runs, 6 SB, 321 total bases in 151 games
Player B - 26 HR, 84 RBI, 97 Runs, 24 SB, 286 total bases in 162 games

That is easy.
What position does each play?
And at which of those 2 positions do I have a need on my roster?
What is the age of each?
How many years of control do I get from either one?
Are both FA's - or can I trade for one?
If the answers are exactly the same for both, I take A.
But if neither fit what my roster needs, I don't take either one.
Worth noting that WAR is of zero help with any of those questions.

So you changed your answer from before.

They’re both outfielders.

I have you down for A.

Player A is 1999 Dante Bichette, -2.3 bWAR
Player B is 1999 Andruw Jones, 7.1 bWAR

So you both took a player who was nearly 9 WAR less valuable.

Thank you for playing.

And this proves that WAR is reliable stat for proving a players value?

1995 Bichette
40 128 .340 .364 .620 .984 130 359TB 2nd NL MVP
1.2WAR
I would take these stats for LFer if you put him out there without a glove….because D in LF just doesn’t matter all that much. Catch what you can get to and fling the ball back into 2nd. Through history this has been true
Holliday/Ozuna/Dunc
Why do you think they put thumpers there? To produce runs!!! Will they give up a couple through the year but nowhere close to what they produce
This is why WAR is a Laughable mental contortion exercise

[Goldfan]

still crickets from Melville. Awkward.

Sorry to keep you waiting, my old friend.
Unlike many here, I am not retired (though I am old enough to do so I suppose, I believe it is immoral to retire while one can still contribute to society at a high level).
I enjoy the competition of outperforming folks half my age - and enjoy even more how much I can teach (much like I do here).
Still have a few more years to put in before I move on to the next phase of life.
Which means, that while I am fully aware that many hang on my every word and am always willing to fulfill that need, sometimes folks simply need to be patient.
Sometimes hours.
Sometimes days.
Now, how can I help you?

Who are you taking?
Player A - 34 HR, 133 RBI, 104 Runs, 6 SB, 321 total bases in 151 games
Player B - 26 HR, 84 RBI, 97 Runs, 24 SB, 286 total bases in 162 games

That is easy.
What position does each play?
And at which of those 2 positions do I have a need on my roster?
What is the age of each?
How many years of control do I get from either one?
Are both FA's - or can I trade for one?
If the answers are exactly the same for both, I take A.
But if neither fit what my roster needs, I don't take either one.
Worth noting that WAR is of zero help with any of those questions.

So you changed your answer from before.

They’re both outfielders.

I have you down for A.

Player A is 1999 Dante Bichette, -2.3 bWAR
Player B is 1999 Andruw Jones, 7.1 bWAR

So you both took a player who was nearly 9 WAR less valuable.

Thank you for playing.

And this proves that WAR is reliable stat for proving a players value?

Bichette’s counting stats were buoyed by Colorado. He had a 102 OPS+.

His defense in left field was so historically abysmal that it wiped out all of his offensive contribution and then some.

Meanwhile, Jones had a strong offensive season and was one of the best defensive center fielders of all time.

At face value of counting stats alone, you identified a far worse baseball player as the one you’d rather have. That’s kind of the point… because if you’d seen their WAR, as well, you might’ve been inclined to lean in to see what drove that massive difference in value when your mind told you it HAD to be player A

Prove to me that his D gave up anywhere close to 34, 133, 104 and 321 TB
Impossible. How many CH does a LF get per game and out of those what does he not get to that someone else does. AS I’ve repeatedly said WAR is out of whack when the real game

[An Old Friend]

still crickets from Melville. Awkward.

Sorry to keep you waiting, my old friend.
Unlike many here, I am not retired (though I am old enough to do so I suppose, I believe it is immoral to retire while one can still contribute to society at a high level).
I enjoy the competition of outperforming folks half my age - and enjoy even more how much I can teach (much like I do here).
Still have a few more years to put in before I move on to the next phase of life.
Which means, that while I am fully aware that many hang on my every word and am always willing to fulfill that need, sometimes folks simply need to be patient.
Sometimes hours.
Sometimes days.
Now, how can I help you?

Who are you taking?
Player A - 34 HR, 133 RBI, 104 Runs, 6 SB, 321 total bases in 151 games
Player B - 26 HR, 84 RBI, 97 Runs, 24 SB, 286 total bases in 162 games

That is easy.
What position does each play?
And at which of those 2 positions do I have a need on my roster?
What is the age of each?
How many years of control do I get from either one?
Are both FA's - or can I trade for one?
If the answers are exactly the same for both, I take A.
But if neither fit what my roster needs, I don't take either one.
Worth noting that WAR is of zero help with any of those questions.

So you changed your answer from before.

They’re both outfielders.

I have you down for A.

Player A is 1999 Dante Bichette, -2.3 bWAR
Player B is 1999 Andruw Jones, 7.1 bWAR

So you both took a player who was nearly 9 WAR less valuable.

Thank you for playing.

And this proves that WAR is reliable stat for proving a players value?

Bichette’s counting stats were buoyed by Colorado. He had a 102 OPS+.

His defense in left field was so historically abysmal that it wiped out all of his offensive contribution and then some.

Meanwhile, Jones had a strong offensive season and was one of the best defensive center fielders of all time.

At face value of counting stats alone, you identified a far worse baseball player as the one you’d rather have. That’s kind of the point… because if you’d seen their WAR, as well, you might’ve been inclined to lean in to see what drove that massive difference in value when your mind told you it HAD to be player A

Prove to me that his D gave up anywhere close to 34, 133, 104 and 321 TB
Impossible. How many CH does a LF get per game and out of those what does he not get to that someone else does. AS I’ve repeatedly said WAR is out of whack when the real game

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/dante-biche ... 99-season/

I'm sorry you didn't like the example or exercise.

Do you think Ozzie's value on defense and on the bases was overblown? He had a 6.7 fWAR / 7.3 bWAR with 2 HR and 50 RBI.

[Goldfan]

still crickets from Melville. Awkward.

Sorry to keep you waiting, my old friend.
Unlike many here, I am not retired (though I am old enough to do so I suppose, I believe it is immoral to retire while one can still contribute to society at a high level).
I enjoy the competition of outperforming folks half my age - and enjoy even more how much I can teach (much like I do here).
Still have a few more years to put in before I move on to the next phase of life.
Which means, that while I am fully aware that many hang on my every word and am always willing to fulfill that need, sometimes folks simply need to be patient.
Sometimes hours.
Sometimes days.
Now, how can I help you?

Who are you taking?
Player A - 34 HR, 133 RBI, 104 Runs, 6 SB, 321 total bases in 151 games
Player B - 26 HR, 84 RBI, 97 Runs, 24 SB, 286 total bases in 162 games

That is easy.
What position does each play?
And at which of those 2 positions do I have a need on my roster?
What is the age of each?
How many years of control do I get from either one?
Are both FA's - or can I trade for one?
If the answers are exactly the same for both, I take A.
But if neither fit what my roster needs, I don't take either one.
Worth noting that WAR is of zero help with any of those questions.

So you changed your answer from before.

They’re both outfielders.

I have you down for A.

Player A is 1999 Dante Bichette, -2.3 bWAR
Player B is 1999 Andruw Jones, 7.1 bWAR

So you both took a player who was nearly 9 WAR less valuable.

Thank you for playing.

And this proves that WAR is reliable stat for proving a players value?

Bichette’s counting stats were buoyed by Colorado. He had a 102 OPS+.

His defense in left field was so historically abysmal that it wiped out all of his offensive contribution and then some.

Meanwhile, Jones had a strong offensive season and was one of the best defensive center fielders of all time.

At face value of counting stats alone, you identified a far worse baseball player as the one you’d rather have. That’s kind of the point… because if you’d seen their WAR, as well, you might’ve been inclined to lean in to see what drove that massive difference in value when your mind told you it HAD to be player A

Prove to me that his D gave up anywhere close to 34, 133, 104 and 321 TB
Impossible. How many CH does a LF get per game and out of those what does he not get to that someone else does. AS I’ve repeatedly said WAR is out of whack when the real game

He had 1.86 CH per GAME in LF………it’s LF. We’ve been watching Baseball our whole lives…..once in a great while are balls played into extra base hits by a LFer. So every CH he screwed up and it completely negates his 321 TB for the year?? Ridiculous

[Goldfan]

still crickets from Melville. Awkward.

Sorry to keep you waiting, my old friend.
Unlike many here, I am not retired (though I am old enough to do so I suppose, I believe it is immoral to retire while one can still contribute to society at a high level).
I enjoy the competition of outperforming folks half my age - and enjoy even more how much I can teach (much like I do here).
Still have a few more years to put in before I move on to the next phase of life.
Which means, that while I am fully aware that many hang on my every word and am always willing to fulfill that need, sometimes folks simply need to be patient.
Sometimes hours.
Sometimes days.
Now, how can I help you?

Who are you taking?
Player A - 34 HR, 133 RBI, 104 Runs, 6 SB, 321 total bases in 151 games
Player B - 26 HR, 84 RBI, 97 Runs, 24 SB, 286 total bases in 162 games

That is easy.
What position does each play?
And at which of those 2 positions do I have a need on my roster?
What is the age of each?
How many years of control do I get from either one?
Are both FA's - or can I trade for one?
If the answers are exactly the same for both, I take A.
But if neither fit what my roster needs, I don't take either one.
Worth noting that WAR is of zero help with any of those questions.

So you changed your answer from before.

They’re both outfielders.

I have you down for A.

Player A is 1999 Dante Bichette, -2.3 bWAR
Player B is 1999 Andruw Jones, 7.1 bWAR

So you both took a player who was nearly 9 WAR less valuable.

Thank you for playing.

And this proves that WAR is reliable stat for proving a players value?

Bichette’s counting stats were buoyed by Colorado. He had a 102 OPS+.

His defense in left field was so historically abysmal that it wiped out all of his offensive contribution and then some.

Meanwhile, Jones had a strong offensive season and was one of the best defensive center fielders of all time.

At face value of counting stats alone, you identified a far worse baseball player as the one you’d rather have. That’s kind of the point… because if you’d seen their WAR, as well, you might’ve been inclined to lean in to see what drove that massive difference in value when your mind told you it HAD to be player A

Prove to me that his D gave up anywhere close to 34, 133, 104 and 321 TB
Impossible. How many CH does a LF get per game and out of those what does he not get to that someone else does. AS I’ve repeatedly said WAR is out of whack when the real game

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/dante-biche ... 99-season/

I'm sorry you didn't like the example or exercise.

Do you think Ozzie's value on defense and on the bases was overblown? He had a 6.7 fWAR / 7.3 bWAR with 2 HR and 50 RBI.

I didn’t see in that article how many runs HE ALLOWED, is it in there?? This assumption that all other fielders would get to balls is just an assumption. And again he had 1.86 CH/G
The greatest most athletic SS who I believe set a record for CH is the comparison you choose for a slugging LFer??

[Goldfan]

still crickets from Melville. Awkward.

Sorry to keep you waiting, my old friend.
Unlike many here, I am not retired (though I am old enough to do so I suppose, I believe it is immoral to retire while one can still contribute to society at a high level).
I enjoy the competition of outperforming folks half my age - and enjoy even more how much I can teach (much like I do here).
Still have a few more years to put in before I move on to the next phase of life.
Which means, that while I am fully aware that many hang on my every word and am always willing to fulfill that need, sometimes folks simply need to be patient.
Sometimes hours.
Sometimes days.
Now, how can I help you?

Who are you taking?
Player A - 34 HR, 133 RBI, 104 Runs, 6 SB, 321 total bases in 151 games
Player B - 26 HR, 84 RBI, 97 Runs, 24 SB, 286 total bases in 162 games

That is easy.
What position does each play?
And at which of those 2 positions do I have a need on my roster?
What is the age of each?
How many years of control do I get from either one?
Are both FA's - or can I trade for one?
If the answers are exactly the same for both, I take A.
But if neither fit what my roster needs, I don't take either one.
Worth noting that WAR is of zero help with any of those questions.

So you changed your answer from before.

They’re both outfielders.

I have you down for A.

Player A is 1999 Dante Bichette, -2.3 bWAR
Player B is 1999 Andruw Jones, 7.1 bWAR

So you both took a player who was nearly 9 WAR less valuable.

Thank you for playing.

And this proves that WAR is reliable stat for proving a players value?

Bichette’s counting stats were buoyed by Colorado. He had a 102 OPS+.

His defense in left field was so historically abysmal that it wiped out all of his offensive contribution and then some.

Meanwhile, Jones had a strong offensive season and was one of the best defensive center fielders of all time.

At face value of counting stats alone, you identified a far worse baseball player as the one you’d rather have. That’s kind of the point… because if you’d seen their WAR, as well, you might’ve been inclined to lean in to see what drove that massive difference in value when your mind told you it HAD to be player A

Prove to me that his D gave up anywhere close to 34, 133, 104 and 321 TB
Impossible. How many CH does a LF get per game and out of those what does he not get to that someone else does. AS I’ve repeatedly said WAR is out of whack when the real game

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/dante-biche ... 99-season/

I'm sorry you didn't like the example or exercise.

Do you think Ozzie's value on defense and on the bases was overblown? He had a 6.7 fWAR / 7.3 bWAR with 2 HR and 50 RBI.

I didn’t see in that article how many runs HE ALLOWED, is it in there?? This assumption that all other fielders would get to balls is just an assumption. And again he had 1.86 CH/G
The greatest most athletic SS who I believe set a record for CH is the comparison you choose for a slugging LFer??

Do you think Coors is the park to determine defensive prowess of any OFer?? Remember watching Cards OFers look like kids there and the pitchers back the prehumidore gave up gappers every other pitch.

[Melville]

still crickets from Melville. Awkward.

Sorry to keep you waiting, my old friend.
Unlike many here, I am not retired (though I am old enough to do so I suppose, I believe it is immoral to retire while one can still contribute to society at a high level).
I enjoy the competition of outperforming folks half my age - and enjoy even more how much I can teach (much like I do here).
Still have a few more years to put in before I move on to the next phase of life.
Which means, that while I am fully aware that many hang on my every word and am always willing to fulfill that need, sometimes folks simply need to be patient.
Sometimes hours.
Sometimes days.
Now, how can I help you?

Who are you taking?
Player A - 34 HR, 133 RBI, 104 Runs, 6 SB, 321 total bases in 151 games
Player B - 26 HR, 84 RBI, 97 Runs, 24 SB, 286 total bases in 162 games

That is easy.
What position does each play?
And at which of those 2 positions do I have a need on my roster?
What is the age of each?
How many years of control do I get from either one?
Are both FA's - or can I trade for one?
If the answers are exactly the same for both, I take A.
But if neither fit what my roster needs, I don't take either one.
Worth noting that WAR is of zero help with any of those questions.

So you changed your answer from before.

They’re both outfielders.

I have you down for A.

Player A is 1999 Dante Bichette, -2.3 bWAR
Player B is 1999 Andruw Jones, 7.1 bWAR

So you both took a player who was nearly 9 WAR less valuable.

Thank you for playing.

I do appreciate your admission that you are playing games.
So disappointing.
Normally you are a quality poster.
Yet here you are dissembling and obfuscating.
Not sure what it is about this topic that brings out the character weaknesses in some (doubtless related to the weakness of their position).
Your prevarication above should be beneath you - but sadly that is not the case.
In 1999 Bichette turned 36 - and was a left fielder.
That year Jones turned 22 - and was a CF.
As you knew full well before posting your childishness above, I stated that the determination would include a number of factors, including:
What position does each play?
What is the age of each?
How many years of control do I get from either one?
How loathsome of you to pretend these were not determinative factors in my answer.
Be better.
I am optimistic that you can.

Was simply proving two points that you and Goldfan had challenged… that defense matters, and that value cannot simply be determined by runs / homeruns / rbi / total bases as was suggested in the Carpenter vs Heyward discussion.

And you, here, acknowledge that there is more to a player’s value than simply the counting stats… which WAR helps to consolidate.

Yes, I intentionally painted you into a corner, but sometimes it takes an example like that for people to finally get it.

First dishonesty on your part.
Followed by confusion.
At no point did I discuss defense with either of you.
Nor was I engaged in your Heyward / Carpenter back and forth.
The only thing you have painted is an unflattering self-portrait.
Again, you are normally better than this.
I believe I will get back to my thread now and discuss the topic at hand with those interested in more forthright dialogue.
Be well.

[An Old Friend]

you are normally better than this.
I believe I will get back to my thread now and discuss the topic at hand with those interested in more forthright dialogue.
Be well.

I told you pages ago that we fundamentally disagreed. You indicated that you wanted to carry on the discussion, so I chose to use a dramatic example to illustrate how off base I believe your opinion to be.

[Ozziesfan41]

you are normally better than this.
I believe I will get back to my thread now and discuss the topic at hand with those interested in more forthright dialogue.
Be well.

I told you pages ago that we fundamentally disagreed. You indicated that you wanted to carry on the discussion, so I chose to use a dramatic example to illustrate how off base I believe your opinion to be.

And your opinion is off base to others.

[Melville]

you are normally better than this.
I believe I will get back to my thread now and discuss the topic at hand with those interested in more forthright dialogue.
Be well.

I told you pages ago that we fundamentally disagreed. You indicated that you wanted to carry on the discussion, so I chose to use a dramatic example to illustrate how off base I believe your opinion to be.

You lied about my response.
Inexcusable.
Again, you are better than that.