Going to WAR...for Classic0

[riff raff]

WAR is imperfect because it assigns an arbitrary number to each position on defense. It also fails to value correctly players who DH because they are poor fielders.

Herrera has a 1.2 WAR. Pages has a .2 WAR. Some would say catcher is the most valuable on defense of the position players but Herrera has a higher WAR despite the fact that he is a liability on defense. I would say Pages is more valuable because without him Herrera would be catching every game.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2025.shtml

No, without him, someone else would be catching.

Herrera is worth that much because he has hit like prime JD Martinez when he's been on the field.
Pages is worth so little because he is a near complete liability on offense.

Pages is playing because of Herrera. That should be factored in Herrera's WAR. It is also why the DH doesn't necessarily increase offense. Put a poor defender on the field and the other team gains offense.

You understand the symphony of baseball, whereas others are reading a note on a page.
Of course the 2025 debacle of trying to force Herrera behind the plate, or continuing the quexottic foolishness of Mootbaar as a high value line-up fixture, or the wreckage of jamming Mikolas into the rotation is not something WAR ever reflect - nor its adherents ever grasp.
WAR is a fiction story filled with invisible friends.

Quixotic is the word you were shooting for?

Thank you.
Autofill on my phone
Should have spotted that.
Much like WAR.
Incorrect autofill.

Autofill uses incorrectly spelled words?

[An Old Friend]

WAR is imperfect because it assigns an arbitrary number to each position on defense. It also fails to value correctly players who DH because they are poor fielders.

Herrera has a 1.2 WAR. Pages has a .2 WAR. Some would say catcher is the most valuable on defense of the position players but Herrera has a higher WAR despite the fact that he is a liability on defense. I would say Pages is more valuable because without him Herrera would be catching every game.


https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2025.shtml

Let's not forget that catcher is a weighted position.
Pages gets his 0.2 because he performs there.

You can only be judged on where you play.

Herrera gets a higher WAR because they can hide him at DH where his defense doesn't drive down his number. Numbers while hitting in the DH spot should not be calculated.

On the topic of the DH and more offense the flip side is without the DH Herrera would be playing defense and the other team's offense would benefit.

To be clear... you think no value should be attributed to guys like David Ortiz, Manny Ramirez, Edgar Martinez, Shohei Ohtani, JD Martinez... because they ONLY hit?

Dude.

[rbirules]

WAR is imperfect because it assigns an arbitrary number to each position on defense. It also fails to value correctly players who DH because they are poor fielders.

Herrera has a 1.2 WAR. Pages has a .2 WAR. Some would say catcher is the most valuable on defense of the position players but Herrera has a higher WAR despite the fact that he is a liability on defense. I would say Pages is more valuable because without him Herrera would be catching every game.


https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2025.shtml

Let's not forget that catcher is a weighted position.
Pages gets his 0.2 because he performs there.

You can only be judged on where you play.

Herrera gets a higher WAR because they can hide him at DH where his defense doesn't drive down his number. Numbers while hitting in the DH spot should not be calculated.

On the topic of the DH and more offense the flip side is without the DH Herrera would be playing defense and the other team's offense would benefit.

Herrera doesn't get a higher WAR because he can DH. He has to hit enough to overcome the massive positional adjustment for the DH (-17.5 runs) compared to catcher (+12.5 runs) over a full season. That's 30 runs or 3 WAR he loses if he hit exactly the same over a full season playing DH vs. playing catcher. Is his defense at catcher -30 runs bad? We don't know. For his career he has -10 DRS at catcher, in 721 innings (80 games) which is about half a season, if catcher's played all 162 games, which they don't. If you merely extrapolated his defensive metrics across a full season he'd come out ahead as a catcher by 10 runs (+30 positional adjustment, -20 DRS), or 1 WAR.

Statcast defensive metrics have him at -3 runs over his career (80 games) so he'd be losing even more value at DH if you don't trust DRS.

Herrera's numbers while in the DH spot should absolutely be counted. He if played half a year at DH and half at catcher he'd get half the DH positional adjustment (-17.5/2 = -9 runs) and half the catcher positional adjustment (+12.5/2 = +6 runs) for a total positional adjustment of -3 runs (-2.5 to be exact).

Things that aid the other teams offense (stealing bases, advancing on passed balls, etc.) are factored into the catching defense portion of WAR.

DH receives a positional adjustment from what position? It appears all positions are assigned different # of RUNS?

It's not relative to a certain position. Each position gets a positional adjustment (scaled to a full season), and a player's season positional adjustment is a weighted average of all the positions they played and how often they played them.

Positional adjustments (all are per 162 defensive games):
Catcher: +12.5 runs
First Base: -12.5 runs
Second Base: +2.5 runs
Third Base: +2.5 runs
Shortstop: +7.5 runs
Left Field: -7.5 runs
Center Field: +2.5 runs
Right Field: -7.5 runs
Designated Hitter: -17.5 runs

And those baseline numbers are derived from what?

Dang the link in my post (which I forgot to mention) links to fangraphs' positional adjustment page where I got the values. At the bottom of that page they had a link to a more in-depth discussion about how they were derived but that link no longer works (17+ years old). I'll try to find a link to an article about it later if I can.

[An Old Friend]

WAR is imperfect because it assigns an arbitrary number to each position on defense. It also fails to value correctly players who DH because they are poor fielders.

Herrera has a 1.2 WAR. Pages has a .2 WAR. Some would say catcher is the most valuable on defense of the position players but Herrera has a higher WAR despite the fact that he is a liability on defense. I would say Pages is more valuable because without him Herrera would be catching every game.


https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2025.shtml

Let's not forget that catcher is a weighted position.
Pages gets his 0.2 because he performs there.

You can only be judged on where you play.

Herrera gets a higher WAR because they can hide him at DH where his defense doesn't drive down his number. Numbers while hitting in the DH spot should not be calculated.

On the topic of the DH and more offense the flip side is without the DH Herrera would be playing defense and the other team's offense would benefit.

Herrera doesn't get a higher WAR because he can DH. He has to hit enough to overcome the massive positional adjustment for the DH (-17.5 runs) compared to catcher (+12.5 runs) over a full season. That's 30 runs or 3 WAR he loses if he hit exactly the same over a full season playing DH vs. playing catcher. Is his defense at catcher -30 runs bad? We don't know. For his career he has -10 DRS at catcher, in 721 innings (80 games) which is about half a season, if catcher's played all 162 games, which they don't. If you merely extrapolated his defensive metrics across a full season he'd come out ahead as a catcher by 10 runs (+30 positional adjustment, -20 DRS), or 1 WAR.

Statcast defensive metrics have him at -3 runs over his career (80 games) so he'd be losing even more value at DH if you don't trust DRS.

Herrera's numbers while in the DH spot should absolutely be counted. He if played half a year at DH and half at catcher he'd get half the DH positional adjustment (-17.5/2 = -9 runs) and half the catcher positional adjustment (+12.5/2 = +6 runs) for a total positional adjustment of -3 runs (-2.5 to be exact).

Things that aid the other teams offense (stealing bases, advancing on passed balls, etc.) are factored into the catching defense portion of WAR.

DH receives a positional adjustment from what position? It appears all positions are assigned different # of RUNS?

It's not relative to a certain position. Each position gets a positional adjustment (scaled to a full season), and a player's season positional adjustment is a weighted average of all the positions they played and how often they played them.

Positional adjustments (all are per 162 defensive games):
Catcher: +12.5 runs
First Base: -12.5 runs
Second Base: +2.5 runs
Third Base: +2.5 runs
Shortstop: +7.5 runs
Left Field: -7.5 runs
Center Field: +2.5 runs
Right Field: -7.5 runs
Designated Hitter: -17.5 runs

And those baseline numbers are derived from what?

Dang the link in my post (which I forgot to mention) links to fangraphs' positional adjustment page where I got the values. At the bottom of that page they had a link to a more in-depth discussion about how they were derived but that link no longer works (17+ years old). I'll try to find a link to an article about it later if I can.

To partially answer here, though...

It's based on the defensive positional spectrum. The toughest positions have the highest positive adjustment.

DH's provide no defensive value whatsoever so they need to be that much better at hitting to make up that deficit.

I don't know why Melville or Goldfan finds that to be a challenging thought exercise.

[An Old Friend]

It's not relative to a certain position. Each position gets a positional adjustment (scaled to a full season), and a player's season positional adjustment is a weighted average of all the positions they played and how often they played them.

Positional adjustments (all are per 162 defensive games):
Catcher: +12.5 runs
First Base: -12.5 runs
Second Base: +2.5 runs
Third Base: +2.5 runs
Shortstop: +7.5 runs
Left Field: -7.5 runs
Center Field: +2.5 runs
Right Field: -7.5 runs
Designated Hitter: -17.5 runs

So a DH who never takes the field costs his team -17.5 runs??!!??
Oh my.
You couldn't make up such nonsense if you tried.
WAR, of course, does exactly that.

Well, that's because that's not what it means. It doesn't make sense to you because you don't understand the intent.

More importantly, I'm interested in why you've avoided my direct question to you? Won't you please answer? I've given you plenty of time to show some conviction instead of dancing around it.

Player A - 34 HR, 133 RBI, 104 Runs, 6 SB, 321 total bases in 151 games
Player B - 26 HR, 84 RBI, 97 Runs, 24 SB, 286 total bases in 162 games

Your train of thought leads you to Player A, right?

Goldfan / Melville, agree or disagree?

Goldfan at least answered the question and took Player A. What say you?

[Goldfan]

WAR is imperfect because it assigns an arbitrary number to each position on defense. It also fails to value correctly players who DH because they are poor fielders.

Herrera has a 1.2 WAR. Pages has a .2 WAR. Some would say catcher is the most valuable on defense of the position players but Herrera has a higher WAR despite the fact that he is a liability on defense. I would say Pages is more valuable because without him Herrera would be catching every game.


https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2025.shtml

Let's not forget that catcher is a weighted position.
Pages gets his 0.2 because he performs there.

You can only be judged on where you play.

Herrera gets a higher WAR because they can hide him at DH where his defense doesn't drive down his number. Numbers while hitting in the DH spot should not be calculated.

On the topic of the DH and more offense the flip side is without the DH Herrera would be playing defense and the other team's offense would benefit.

Herrera doesn't get a higher WAR because he can DH. He has to hit enough to overcome the massive positional adjustment for the DH (-17.5 runs) compared to catcher (+12.5 runs) over a full season. That's 30 runs or 3 WAR he loses if he hit exactly the same over a full season playing DH vs. playing catcher. Is his defense at catcher -30 runs bad? We don't know. For his career he has -10 DRS at catcher, in 721 innings (80 games) which is about half a season, if catcher's played all 162 games, which they don't. If you merely extrapolated his defensive metrics across a full season he'd come out ahead as a catcher by 10 runs (+30 positional adjustment, -20 DRS), or 1 WAR.

Statcast defensive metrics have him at -3 runs over his career (80 games) so he'd be losing even more value at DH if you don't trust DRS.

Herrera's numbers while in the DH spot should absolutely be counted. He if played half a year at DH and half at catcher he'd get half the DH positional adjustment (-17.5/2 = -9 runs) and half the catcher positional adjustment (+12.5/2 = +6 runs) for a total positional adjustment of -3 runs (-2.5 to be exact).

Things that aid the other teams offense (stealing bases, advancing on passed balls, etc.) are factored into the catching defense portion of WAR.

DH receives a positional adjustment from what position? It appears all positions are assigned different # of RUNS?

It's not relative to a certain position. Each position gets a positional adjustment (scaled to a full season), and a player's season positional adjustment is a weighted average of all the positions they played and how often they played them.

Positional adjustments (all are per 162 defensive games):
Catcher: +12.5 runs
First Base: -12.5 runs
Second Base: +2.5 runs
Third Base: +2.5 runs
Shortstop: +7.5 runs
Left Field: -7.5 runs
Center Field: +2.5 runs
Right Field: -7.5 runs
Designated Hitter: -17.5 runs

So a DH who never takes the field costs his team -17.5 runs??!!??
Oh my.
You couldn't make up such nonsense if you tried.
WAR, of course, does exactly that.

Just imagine if all these baseline number assumptions were off ever so slightly……by the time you get to the 4th or 5th iteration you have yourself a giant cluster

[Quincy Varnish]

You understand the symphony of baseball, whereas others are reading a note on a page.
Of course the 2025 debacle of trying to force Herrera behind the plate, or continuing the quexottic foolishness of Mootbaar as a high value line-up fixture, or the wreckage of jamming Mikolas into the rotation is not something WAR ever reflect - nor its adherents ever grasp.
WAR is a fiction story filled with invisible friends.

Quixotic is the word you were shooting for?

Thank you.
Autofill on my phone
Should have spotted that.
Much like WAR.
Incorrect autofill.

You’re telling me your phone autofilled an imaginary word spelled “quexottic”?

Okay.

[Goldfan]

It's not relative to a certain position. Each position gets a positional adjustment (scaled to a full season), and a player's season positional adjustment is a weighted average of all the positions they played and how often they played them.

Positional adjustments (all are per 162 defensive games):
Catcher: +12.5 runs
First Base: -12.5 runs
Second Base: +2.5 runs
Third Base: +2.5 runs
Shortstop: +7.5 runs
Left Field: -7.5 runs
Center Field: +2.5 runs
Right Field: -7.5 runs
Designated Hitter: -17.5 runs

So a DH who never takes the field costs his team -17.5 runs??!!??
Oh my.
You couldn't make up such nonsense if you tried.
WAR, of course, does exactly that.

Well, that's because that's not what it means. It doesn't make sense to you because you don't understand the intent.

More importantly, I'm interested in why you've avoided my direct question to you? Won't you please answer? I've given you plenty of time to show some conviction instead of dancing around it.

Player A - 34 HR, 133 RBI, 104 Runs, 6 SB, 321 total bases in 151 games
Player B - 26 HR, 84 RBI, 97 Runs, 24 SB, 286 total bases in 162 games

Your train of thought leads you to Player A, right?

Goldfan / Melville, agree or disagree?

Goldfan at least answered the question and took Player A. What say you?

Still waiting on my prize

[Goldfan]

You understand the symphony of baseball, whereas others are reading a note on a page.
Of course the 2025 debacle of trying to force Herrera behind the plate, or continuing the quexottic foolishness of Mootbaar as a high value line-up fixture, or the wreckage of jamming Mikolas into the rotation is not something WAR ever reflect - nor its adherents ever grasp.
WAR is a fiction story filled with invisible friends.

Quixotic is the word you were shooting for?

Thank you.
Autofill on my phone
Should have spotted that.
Much like WAR.
Incorrect autofill.

You’re telling me your phone autofilled an imaginary word spelled “quexottic”?

Okay.

quix·ot·ic
/kwikˈsädik/
adjective
adjective: quixotic
exceedingly idealistic; unrealistic and impractical.

It’s another name for WAR
Quinc…..and you’re calling out everyone’s level of understanding

[An Old Friend]

It's not relative to a certain position. Each position gets a positional adjustment (scaled to a full season), and a player's season positional adjustment is a weighted average of all the positions they played and how often they played them.

Positional adjustments (all are per 162 defensive games):
Catcher: +12.5 runs
First Base: -12.5 runs
Second Base: +2.5 runs
Third Base: +2.5 runs
Shortstop: +7.5 runs
Left Field: -7.5 runs
Center Field: +2.5 runs
Right Field: -7.5 runs
Designated Hitter: -17.5 runs

So a DH who never takes the field costs his team -17.5 runs??!!??
Oh my.
You couldn't make up such nonsense if you tried.
WAR, of course, does exactly that.

Well, that's because that's not what it means. It doesn't make sense to you because you don't understand the intent.

More importantly, I'm interested in why you've avoided my direct question to you? Won't you please answer? I've given you plenty of time to show some conviction instead of dancing around it.

Player A - 34 HR, 133 RBI, 104 Runs, 6 SB, 321 total bases in 151 games
Player B - 26 HR, 84 RBI, 97 Runs, 24 SB, 286 total bases in 162 games

Your train of thought leads you to Player A, right?

Goldfan / Melville, agree or disagree?

Goldfan at least answered the question and took Player A. What say you?

Still waiting on my prize

I'm trying to see if Melville will stop being a coward.

We both know why he won't answer it, though.

I'm not sure that you'll love your prize , but I do appreciate that you at least answered the question. I mean that sincerely. You at least have the conviction to stand by your opinion.

[Quincy Varnish]

You understand the symphony of baseball, whereas others are reading a note on a page.
Of course the 2025 debacle of trying to force Herrera behind the plate, or continuing the quexottic foolishness of Mootbaar as a high value line-up fixture, or the wreckage of jamming Mikolas into the rotation is not something WAR ever reflect - nor its adherents ever grasp.
WAR is a fiction story filled with invisible friends.

Quixotic is the word you were shooting for?

Thank you.
Autofill on my phone
Should have spotted that.
Much like WAR.
Incorrect autofill.

You’re telling me your phone autofilled an imaginary word spelled “quexottic”?

Okay.

quix·ot·ic
/kwikˈsädik/
adjective
adjective: quixotic
exceedingly idealistic; unrealistic and impractical.

It’s another name for WAR
Quinc…..and you’re calling out everyone’s level of understanding

Dude…. you aren’t getting it, at all. Like anything.

[Goldfan]

You understand the symphony of baseball, whereas others are reading a note on a page.
Of course the 2025 debacle of trying to force Herrera behind the plate, or continuing the quexottic foolishness of Mootbaar as a high value line-up fixture, or the wreckage of jamming Mikolas into the rotation is not something WAR ever reflect - nor its adherents ever grasp.
WAR is a fiction story filled with invisible friends.

Quixotic is the word you were shooting for?

Thank you.
Autofill on my phone
Should have spotted that.
Much like WAR.
Incorrect autofill.

You’re telling me your phone autofilled an imaginary word spelled “quexottic”?

Okay.

quix·ot·ic
/kwikˈsädik/
adjective
adjective: quixotic
exceedingly idealistic; unrealistic and impractical.

It’s another name for WAR
Quinc…..and you’re calling out everyone’s level of understanding

Dude…. you aren’t getting it, at all. Like anything.

Quinc….you might need some of BD homegrown….you ever just have a little fun….or always full blown attitude??

[Goldfan]

It's not relative to a certain position. Each position gets a positional adjustment (scaled to a full season), and a player's season positional adjustment is a weighted average of all the positions they played and how often they played them.

Positional adjustments (all are per 162 defensive games):
Catcher: +12.5 runs
First Base: -12.5 runs
Second Base: +2.5 runs
Third Base: +2.5 runs
Shortstop: +7.5 runs
Left Field: -7.5 runs
Center Field: +2.5 runs
Right Field: -7.5 runs
Designated Hitter: -17.5 runs

So a DH who never takes the field costs his team -17.5 runs??!!??
Oh my.
You couldn't make up such nonsense if you tried.
WAR, of course, does exactly that.

Well, that's because that's not what it means. It doesn't make sense to you because you don't understand the intent.

More importantly, I'm interested in why you've avoided my direct question to you? Won't you please answer? I've given you plenty of time to show some conviction instead of dancing around it.

Player A - 34 HR, 133 RBI, 104 Runs, 6 SB, 321 total bases in 151 games
Player B - 26 HR, 84 RBI, 97 Runs, 24 SB, 286 total bases in 162 games

Your train of thought leads you to Player A, right?

Goldfan / Melville, agree or disagree?

Goldfan at least answered the question and took Player A. What say you?

Still waiting on my prize

I'm trying to see if Melville will stop being a coward.

We both know why he won't answer it, though.

I'm not sure that you'll love your prize , but I do appreciate that you at least answered the question. I mean that sincerely. You at least have the conviction to stand by your opinion.

I don’t care if Player B has a 16WAR because he’s Jesus Christ himself playing the OF Alone….I’ll take the 133 RBI guy

[ScotchMIrish]

WAR is imperfect because it assigns an arbitrary number to each position on defense. It also fails to value correctly players who DH because they are poor fielders.

Herrera has a 1.2 WAR. Pages has a .2 WAR. Some would say catcher is the most valuable on defense of the position players but Herrera has a higher WAR despite the fact that he is a liability on defense. I would say Pages is more valuable because without him Herrera would be catching every game.


https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2025.shtml

Let's not forget that catcher is a weighted position.
Pages gets his 0.2 because he performs there.

You can only be judged on where you play.

Herrera gets a higher WAR because they can hide him at DH where his defense doesn't drive down his number. Numbers while hitting in the DH spot should not be calculated.

On the topic of the DH and more offense the flip side is without the DH Herrera would be playing defense and the other team's offense would benefit.

To be clear... you think no value should be attributed to guys like David Ortiz, Manny Ramirez, Edgar Martinez, Shohei Ohtani, JD Martinez... because they ONLY hit?

Dude.

No WAR. They aren't baseball players. They are batters. Just as a guy at a driving range isn't playing golf.

[Goldfan]

It's not relative to a certain position. Each position gets a positional adjustment (scaled to a full season), and a player's season positional adjustment is a weighted average of all the positions they played and how often they played them.

Positional adjustments (all are per 162 defensive games):
Catcher: +12.5 runs
First Base: -12.5 runs
Second Base: +2.5 runs
Third Base: +2.5 runs
Shortstop: +7.5 runs
Left Field: -7.5 runs
Center Field: +2.5 runs
Right Field: -7.5 runs
Designated Hitter: -17.5 runs

So a DH who never takes the field costs his team -17.5 runs??!!??
Oh my.
You couldn't make up such nonsense if you tried.
WAR, of course, does exactly that.

Well, that's because that's not what it means. It doesn't make sense to you because you don't understand the intent.

More importantly, I'm interested in why you've avoided my direct question to you? Won't you please answer? I've given you plenty of time to show some conviction instead of dancing around it.

Player A - 34 HR, 133 RBI, 104 Runs, 6 SB, 321 total bases in 151 games
Player B - 26 HR, 84 RBI, 97 Runs, 24 SB, 286 total bases in 162 games

Your train of thought leads you to Player A, right?

Goldfan / Melville, agree or disagree?

Goldfan at least answered the question and took Player A. What say you?

We get the INTENT…..the question is HOW DO THEY GET THOSE VALUES and why should we just assume those values have a substantial meaning?
If you haven’t caught on with WAR all these baseline numbers that factor into everything else might not be significant or could be off and lead to a snowball of horsechit….and yall just blindly go along with it…..because it must be correct

[An Old Friend]

It's not relative to a certain position. Each position gets a positional adjustment (scaled to a full season), and a player's season positional adjustment is a weighted average of all the positions they played and how often they played them.

Positional adjustments (all are per 162 defensive games):
Catcher: +12.5 runs
First Base: -12.5 runs
Second Base: +2.5 runs
Third Base: +2.5 runs
Shortstop: +7.5 runs
Left Field: -7.5 runs
Center Field: +2.5 runs
Right Field: -7.5 runs
Designated Hitter: -17.5 runs

So a DH who never takes the field costs his team -17.5 runs??!!??
Oh my.
You couldn't make up such nonsense if you tried.
WAR, of course, does exactly that.

Well, that's because that's not what it means. It doesn't make sense to you because you don't understand the intent.

More importantly, I'm interested in why you've avoided my direct question to you? Won't you please answer? I've given you plenty of time to show some conviction instead of dancing around it.

Player A - 34 HR, 133 RBI, 104 Runs, 6 SB, 321 total bases in 151 games
Player B - 26 HR, 84 RBI, 97 Runs, 24 SB, 286 total bases in 162 games

Your train of thought leads you to Player A, right?

Goldfan / Melville, agree or disagree?

Goldfan at least answered the question and took Player A. What say you?

Still waiting on my prize

I'm trying to see if Melville will stop being a coward.

We both know why he won't answer it, though.

I'm not sure that you'll love your prize , but I do appreciate that you at least answered the question. I mean that sincerely. You at least have the conviction to stand by your opinion.

I don’t care if Player B has a 16WAR because he’s Jesus Christ himself playing the OF Alone….I’ll take the 133 RBI guy

I love it.

I really want Melville to weigh in. It's curious that he won't, wouldn't you say?