Going to WAR...for Classic0

[ClassicO]

It's a fair... or at least fair-ish point. I'm going to provide an example from a single year, though, that challenges that train of thought.

Player A - 34 HR, 133 RBI, 104 Runs, 6 SB, 321 total bases in 151 games
Player B - 26 HR, 84 RBI, 97 Runs, 24 SB, 286 total bases in 162 games

Your train of thought leads you to Player A, right?

Goldfan / Melville, agree or disagree?

Not necessarily, if A is 1b and B is GG SS

My god, you're using defense and positional adjustment as part of a player's comparative value. And there's more to baserunning than SBs, so more of that should be considered.

It's awfully funny to see him say it when he's argued against it, isn't it?

He doesn't understand it and has cognitive dissonance even trying to do so because his mind was made up long ago.

Why do these weirdos keep dedicating their time and intellect developing WAR? It’s just a waste of energy, when they could simply ask Goldfan and Melville for their evaluations.

HA. And no one (I recall) who is championing WAR as a tool, but they aren't dumb enough to ignore it.
I usually just ignore Goldfan but I have the ammo on Melville to show that he is significantly wrong on player evaluations.

[ScotchMIrish]

WAR is imperfect because it assigns an arbitrary number to each position on defense. It also fails to value correctly players who DH because they are poor fielders.

Herrera has a 1.2 WAR. Pages has a .2 WAR. Some would say catcher is the most valuable on defense of the position players but Herrera has a higher WAR despite the fact that he is a liability on defense. I would say Pages is more valuable because without him Herrera would be catching every game.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2025.shtml

No, without him, someone else would be catching.

Herrera is worth that much because he has hit like prime JD Martinez when he's been on the field.
Pages is worth so little because he is a near complete liability on offense.

Pages is playing because of Herrera. That should be factored in Herrera's WAR. It is also why the DH doesn't necessarily increase offense. Put a poor defender on the field and the other team gains offense.

No, Pages is playing because of Mozeliak.

Mozeliak's roster construction be used to penalize other players on the roster?

That's a new argument against WAR I didn't expect to see

That makes no sense. Pages is playing because Herrera isn't an MLB level catcher. If Herrera could catch Pages would be on the bench.

[ScotchMIrish]

WAR is imperfect because it assigns an arbitrary number to each position on defense. It also fails to value correctly players who DH because they are poor fielders.

Herrera has a 1.2 WAR. Pages has a .2 WAR. Some would say catcher is the most valuable on defense of the position players but Herrera has a higher WAR despite the fact that he is a liability on defense. I would say Pages is more valuable because without him Herrera would be catching every game.


https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2025.shtml

Let's not forget that catcher is a weighted position.
Pages gets his 0.2 because he performs there.

You can only be judged on where you play.

Herrera gets a higher WAR because they can hide him at DH where his defense doesn't drive down his number. Numbers while hitting in the DH spot should not be calculated.

On the topic of the DH and more offense the flip side is without the DH Herrera would be playing defense and the other team's offense would benefit.

[rbirules]

WAR is imperfect because it assigns an arbitrary number to each position on defense. It also fails to value correctly players who DH because they are poor fielders.

Herrera has a 1.2 WAR. Pages has a .2 WAR. Some would say catcher is the most valuable on defense of the position players but Herrera has a higher WAR despite the fact that he is a liability on defense. I would say Pages is more valuable because without him Herrera would be catching every game.


https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2025.shtml

Let's not forget that catcher is a weighted position.
Pages gets his 0.2 because he performs there.

You can only be judged on where you play.

Herrera gets a higher WAR because they can hide him at DH where his defense doesn't drive down his number. Numbers while hitting in the DH spot should not be calculated.

On the topic of the DH and more offense the flip side is without the DH Herrera would be playing defense and the other team's offense would benefit.

Herrera doesn't get a higher WAR because he can DH. He has to hit enough to overcome the massive positional adjustment for the DH (-17.5 runs) compared to catcher (+12.5 runs) over a full season. That's 30 runs or 3 WAR he loses if he hit exactly the same over a full season playing DH vs. playing catcher. Is his defense at catcher -30 runs bad? We don't know. For his career he has -10 DRS at catcher, in 721 innings (80 games) which is about half a season, if catcher's played all 162 games, which they don't. If you merely extrapolated his defensive metrics across a full season he'd come out ahead as a catcher by 10 runs (+30 positional adjustment, -20 DRS), or 1 WAR.

Statcast defensive metrics have him at -3 runs over his career (80 games) so he'd be losing even more value at DH if you don't trust DRS.

Herrera's numbers while in the DH spot should absolutely be counted. He if played half a year at DH and half at catcher he'd get half the DH positional adjustment (-17.5/2 = -9 runs) and half the catcher positional adjustment (+12.5/2 = +6 runs) for a total positional adjustment of -3 runs (-2.5 to be exact).

Things that aid the other teams offense (stealing bases, advancing on passed balls, etc.) are factored into the catching defense portion of WAR.

[Goldfan]

It's a fair... or at least fair-ish point. I'm going to provide an example from a single year, though, that challenges that train of thought.

Player A - 34 HR, 133 RBI, 104 Runs, 6 SB, 321 total bases in 151 games
Player B - 26 HR, 84 RBI, 97 Runs, 24 SB, 286 total bases in 162 games

Your train of thought leads you to Player A, right?

Goldfan / Melville, agree or disagree?

Not necessarily, if A is 1b and B is GG SS

My god, you're using defense and positional adjustment as part of a player's comparative value. And there's more to baserunning than SBs, so more of that should be considered.

It's awfully funny to see him say it when he's argued against it, isn't it?

He doesn't understand it and has cognitive dissonance even trying to do so because his mind was made up long ago.

Why do these weirdos keep dedicating their time and intellect developing WAR? It’s just a waste of energy, when they could simply ask Goldfan and Melville for their evaluations.

HA. And no one (I recall) who is championing WAR as a tool, but they aren't dumb enough to ignore it.
I usually just ignore Goldfan but I have the ammo on Melville to show that he is significantly wrong on player evaluations.

Just curious, why do ignore?? I guess you’ve missed the fair and accurate analysis of what has happened to this franchise the last 6yrs or so.
Some of the major points:
Before last season started I predicted terrible attendance starting this season…..Check
Long before Herrera was a given an opportunity I said he had an impact bat…..Check
And my favorite…..the AOF speed swing vid man…..Noot…..ole AOF was pumping those Great slash lines…if only he could stay healthy and play a full season….well he’s played most of season…..what happened to those great slash lines?? Check
We could go on……
WAR
So the origination point are evenly distributed positional stats given to a “fantasy Replacement” player that in theory the TEAM would produce a 40-44 Win season or so……now you and I both know specific player or team stat lines don’t really correlate to specific W-L records but we’ll give you that one.
Then we work are way to assigning Fantasy Runs and Wins, because as you know the number of Runs ALWAYS dictate who WINS the game in Baseball..from there we make assumptions about defensive players if they should catch the ball or not and how that directly leads to WINS or NOT.
And there are 2 houses of this WAR rating and one gives much more value to D than the other…..and its up to you which one you really want to follow….for the most accuracy
And I’m called names, chastised, implied stupid because I prefer to look at the stats in the official record book that is exactly what does happened in between the lines.

[ScotchMIrish]

WAR is imperfect because it assigns an arbitrary number to each position on defense. It also fails to value correctly players who DH because they are poor fielders.

Herrera has a 1.2 WAR. Pages has a .2 WAR. Some would say catcher is the most valuable on defense of the position players but Herrera has a higher WAR despite the fact that he is a liability on defense. I would say Pages is more valuable because without him Herrera would be catching every game.


https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2025.shtml

Let's not forget that catcher is a weighted position.
Pages gets his 0.2 because he performs there.

You can only be judged on where you play.

Herrera gets a higher WAR because they can hide him at DH where his defense doesn't drive down his number. Numbers while hitting in the DH spot should not be calculated.

On the topic of the DH and more offense the flip side is without the DH Herrera would be playing defense and the other team's offense would benefit.

Herrera doesn't get a higher WAR because he can DH. He has to hit enough to overcome the massive positional adjustment for the DH (-17.5 runs) compared to catcher (+12.5 runs) over a full season. That's 30 runs or 3 WAR he loses if he hit exactly the same over a full season playing DH vs. playing catcher. Is his defense at catcher -30 runs bad? We don't know. For his career he has -10 DRS at catcher, in 721 innings (80 games) which is about half a season, if catcher's played all 162 games, which they don't. If you merely extrapolated his defensive metrics across a full season he'd come out ahead as a catcher by 10 runs (+30 positional adjustment, -20 DRS), or 1 WAR.

Statcast defensive metrics have him at -3 runs over his career (80 games) so he'd be losing even more value at DH if you don't trust DRS.

Herrera's numbers while in the DH spot should absolutely be counted. He if played half a year at DH and half at catcher he'd get half the DH positional adjustment (-17.5/2 = -9 runs) and half the catcher positional adjustment (+12.5/2 = +6 runs) for a total positional adjustment of -3 runs (-2.5 to be exact).

Things that aid the other teams offense (stealing bases, advancing on passed balls, etc.) are factored into the catching defense portion of WAR.

But he is one of if not the worst catcher in MLB. Why would he get +12.5? He isn't a baseball player. He is a batter.

Not trashing Herrera just pointing out the fraud of WAR.

[rbirules]

Herrera doesn't get a higher WAR because he can DH. He has to hit enough to overcome the massive positional adjustment for the DH (-17.5 runs) compared to catcher (+12.5 runs) over a full season. That's 30 runs or 3 WAR he loses if he hit exactly the same over a full season playing DH vs. playing catcher. Is his defense at catcher -30 runs bad? We don't know. For his career he has -10 DRS at catcher, in 721 innings (80 games) which is about half a season, if catcher's played all 162 games, which they don't. If you merely extrapolated his defensive metrics across a full season he'd come out ahead as a catcher by 10 runs (+30 positional adjustment, -20 DRS), or 1 WAR.

Statcast defensive metrics have him at -3 runs over his career (80 games) so he'd be losing even more value at DH if you don't trust DRS.

Herrera's numbers while in the DH spot should absolutely be counted. He if played half a year at DH and half at catcher he'd get half the DH positional adjustment (-17.5/2 = -9 runs) and half the catcher positional adjustment (+12.5/2 = +6 runs) for a total positional adjustment of -3 runs (-2.5 to be exact).

Things that aid the other teams offense (stealing bases, advancing on passed balls, etc.) are factored into the catching defense portion of WAR.

But he is one of if not the worst catcher in MLB. Why would he get +12.5? He isn't a baseball player. He is a batter.

Not trashing Herrera just pointing out the fraud of WAR.

Sorry, maybe I didn't phrase that well, or explained it poorly.

The positional adjustment between catcher and DH over a full season is 30 runs, or 3 WAR. But that's for an average defensive catcher which we know Herrera is not. In order for his WAR to be better off with him DH-ing full time instead of catching he'd have to give back 30 runs defensively. As I showed depending on the defensive metric source you prefer he's been -10 runs or -3 runs in his career over 80 games behind the plate. If he played catcher half the time and DH half the time he'd need to be -15 runs defensively at catcher in 80 games to be worse off.

He gets the prorated +12.5 because playing catcher is hard. Really hard. From there a player can gain (like Yadi) or lose (like Herrera) defensive value, but +12.5 is the starting point for catcher and -17.5 is the starting point for a DH.

If Herrera's career was a season he'd get +6.25 for the 80 games he caught, and then -10 (or -3) runs for being bad defensively, for a net -3.75 (or +3.25) runs defensively. Then you'd do the same for the games he was a DH -17.5 runs x (# of games at DH) / 162, then you'd add those two together.

Again, this isn't a problem with WAR, and this is actually a great example of a question that WAR is useful in answering. Are the Cardinals better off with Herrera at DH or catcher? It depends on his own performance at catcher (and how much you believe those defensive metrics in small samples, he's got a terrible arm though) and the team's depth at both positions.

[Goldfan]

WAR is imperfect because it assigns an arbitrary number to each position on defense. It also fails to value correctly players who DH because they are poor fielders.

Herrera has a 1.2 WAR. Pages has a .2 WAR. Some would say catcher is the most valuable on defense of the position players but Herrera has a higher WAR despite the fact that he is a liability on defense. I would say Pages is more valuable because without him Herrera would be catching every game.


https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2025.shtml

Let's not forget that catcher is a weighted position.
Pages gets his 0.2 because he performs there.

You can only be judged on where you play.

Herrera gets a higher WAR because they can hide him at DH where his defense doesn't drive down his number. Numbers while hitting in the DH spot should not be calculated.

On the topic of the DH and more offense the flip side is without the DH Herrera would be playing defense and the other team's offense would benefit.

Herrera doesn't get a higher WAR because he can DH. He has to hit enough to overcome the massive positional adjustment for the DH (-17.5 runs) compared to catcher (+12.5 runs) over a full season. That's 30 runs or 3 WAR he loses if he hit exactly the same over a full season playing DH vs. playing catcher. Is his defense at catcher -30 runs bad? We don't know. For his career he has -10 DRS at catcher, in 721 innings (80 games) which is about half a season, if catcher's played all 162 games, which they don't. If you merely extrapolated his defensive metrics across a full season he'd come out ahead as a catcher by 10 runs (+30 positional adjustment, -20 DRS), or 1 WAR.

Statcast defensive metrics have him at -3 runs over his career (80 games) so he'd be losing even more value at DH if you don't trust DRS.

Herrera's numbers while in the DH spot should absolutely be counted. He if played half a year at DH and half at catcher he'd get half the DH positional adjustment (-17.5/2 = -9 runs) and half the catcher positional adjustment (+12.5/2 = +6 runs) for a total positional adjustment of -3 runs (-2.5 to be exact).

Things that aid the other teams offense (stealing bases, advancing on passed balls, etc.) are factored into the catching defense portion of WAR.

DH receives a positional adjustment from what position? It appears all positions are assigned different # of RUNS?

[rbirules]

WAR is imperfect because it assigns an arbitrary number to each position on defense. It also fails to value correctly players who DH because they are poor fielders.

Herrera has a 1.2 WAR. Pages has a .2 WAR. Some would say catcher is the most valuable on defense of the position players but Herrera has a higher WAR despite the fact that he is a liability on defense. I would say Pages is more valuable because without him Herrera would be catching every game.


https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2025.shtml

Let's not forget that catcher is a weighted position.
Pages gets his 0.2 because he performs there.

You can only be judged on where you play.

Herrera gets a higher WAR because they can hide him at DH where his defense doesn't drive down his number. Numbers while hitting in the DH spot should not be calculated.

On the topic of the DH and more offense the flip side is without the DH Herrera would be playing defense and the other team's offense would benefit.

Herrera doesn't get a higher WAR because he can DH. He has to hit enough to overcome the massive positional adjustment for the DH (-17.5 runs) compared to catcher (+12.5 runs) over a full season. That's 30 runs or 3 WAR he loses if he hit exactly the same over a full season playing DH vs. playing catcher. Is his defense at catcher -30 runs bad? We don't know. For his career he has -10 DRS at catcher, in 721 innings (80 games) which is about half a season, if catcher's played all 162 games, which they don't. If you merely extrapolated his defensive metrics across a full season he'd come out ahead as a catcher by 10 runs (+30 positional adjustment, -20 DRS), or 1 WAR.

Statcast defensive metrics have him at -3 runs over his career (80 games) so he'd be losing even more value at DH if you don't trust DRS.

Herrera's numbers while in the DH spot should absolutely be counted. He if played half a year at DH and half at catcher he'd get half the DH positional adjustment (-17.5/2 = -9 runs) and half the catcher positional adjustment (+12.5/2 = +6 runs) for a total positional adjustment of -3 runs (-2.5 to be exact).

Things that aid the other teams offense (stealing bases, advancing on passed balls, etc.) are factored into the catching defense portion of WAR.

DH receives a positional adjustment from what position? It appears all positions are assigned different # of RUNS?

It's not relative to a certain position. Each position gets a positional adjustment (scaled to a full season), and a player's season positional adjustment is a weighted average of all the positions they played and how often they played them.

Positional adjustments (all are per 162 defensive games):
Catcher: +12.5 runs
First Base: -12.5 runs
Second Base: +2.5 runs
Third Base: +2.5 runs
Shortstop: +7.5 runs
Left Field: -7.5 runs
Center Field: +2.5 runs
Right Field: -7.5 runs
Designated Hitter: -17.5 runs

[Goldfan]

WAR is imperfect because it assigns an arbitrary number to each position on defense. It also fails to value correctly players who DH because they are poor fielders.

Herrera has a 1.2 WAR. Pages has a .2 WAR. Some would say catcher is the most valuable on defense of the position players but Herrera has a higher WAR despite the fact that he is a liability on defense. I would say Pages is more valuable because without him Herrera would be catching every game.


https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2025.shtml

Let's not forget that catcher is a weighted position.
Pages gets his 0.2 because he performs there.

You can only be judged on where you play.

Herrera gets a higher WAR because they can hide him at DH where his defense doesn't drive down his number. Numbers while hitting in the DH spot should not be calculated.

On the topic of the DH and more offense the flip side is without the DH Herrera would be playing defense and the other team's offense would benefit.

Herrera doesn't get a higher WAR because he can DH. He has to hit enough to overcome the massive positional adjustment for the DH (-17.5 runs) compared to catcher (+12.5 runs) over a full season. That's 30 runs or 3 WAR he loses if he hit exactly the same over a full season playing DH vs. playing catcher. Is his defense at catcher -30 runs bad? We don't know. For his career he has -10 DRS at catcher, in 721 innings (80 games) which is about half a season, if catcher's played all 162 games, which they don't. If you merely extrapolated his defensive metrics across a full season he'd come out ahead as a catcher by 10 runs (+30 positional adjustment, -20 DRS), or 1 WAR.

Statcast defensive metrics have him at -3 runs over his career (80 games) so he'd be losing even more value at DH if you don't trust DRS.

Herrera's numbers while in the DH spot should absolutely be counted. He if played half a year at DH and half at catcher he'd get half the DH positional adjustment (-17.5/2 = -9 runs) and half the catcher positional adjustment (+12.5/2 = +6 runs) for a total positional adjustment of -3 runs (-2.5 to be exact).

Things that aid the other teams offense (stealing bases, advancing on passed balls, etc.) are factored into the catching defense portion of WAR.

DH receives a positional adjustment from what position? It appears all positions are assigned different # of RUNS?

It's not relative to a certain position. Each position gets a positional adjustment (scaled to a full season), and a player's season positional adjustment is a weighted average of all the positions they played and how often they played them.

Positional adjustments (all are per 162 defensive games):
Catcher: +12.5 runs
First Base: -12.5 runs
Second Base: +2.5 runs
Third Base: +2.5 runs
Shortstop: +7.5 runs
Left Field: -7.5 runs
Center Field: +2.5 runs
Right Field: -7.5 runs
Designated Hitter: -17.5 runs

And those baseline numbers are derived from what?

[ClassicO]

WAR is imperfect because it assigns an arbitrary number to each position on defense. It also fails to value correctly players who DH because they are poor fielders.

Herrera has a 1.2 WAR. Pages has a .2 WAR. Some would say catcher is the most valuable on defense of the position players but Herrera has a higher WAR despite the fact that he is a liability on defense. I would say Pages is more valuable because without him Herrera would be catching every game.


https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2025.shtml

No. Pages is NOT "more valuable." Not close.
Herrera's WAR is higher because he is far superior in hitting and baserunning, and Pages is only average at catcher. And the team can use Pozo and do better than they do with Pages , whereas Herrera is badly needed.

Pages defense = -4 blocking is 13th percentile (87% are better than "the statue"); 51st percentile in caught stealing. He is above average in framing but that will be useless soon. Overall, he's average and, while Herrera isn't good defensively at catcher, that delta doesn't come near making up for the difference in hitting/running.

And the positional adjustments made in WAR are not one bit "arbitrary." You may want to read on the subject.

[Melville]

WAR is imperfect because it assigns an arbitrary number to each position on defense. It also fails to value correctly players who DH because they are poor fielders.

Herrera has a 1.2 WAR. Pages has a .2 WAR. Some would say catcher is the most valuable on defense of the position players but Herrera has a higher WAR despite the fact that he is a liability on defense. I would say Pages is more valuable because without him Herrera would be catching every game.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2025.shtml

No, without him, someone else would be catching.

Herrera is worth that much because he has hit like prime JD Martinez when he's been on the field.
Pages is worth so little because he is a near complete liability on offense.

Pages is playing because of Herrera. That should be factored in Herrera's WAR. It is also why the DH doesn't necessarily increase offense. Put a poor defender on the field and the other team gains offense.

You understand the symphony of baseball, whereas others are reading a note on a page.
Of course the 2025 debacle of trying to force Herrera behind the plate, or continuing the quexottic foolishness of Mootbaar as a high value line-up fixture, or the wreckage of jamming Mikolas into the rotation is not something WAR ever reflect - nor its adherents ever grasp.
WAR is a fiction story filled with invisible friends.

[Quincy Varnish]

WAR is imperfect because it assigns an arbitrary number to each position on defense. It also fails to value correctly players who DH because they are poor fielders.

Herrera has a 1.2 WAR. Pages has a .2 WAR. Some would say catcher is the most valuable on defense of the position players but Herrera has a higher WAR despite the fact that he is a liability on defense. I would say Pages is more valuable because without him Herrera would be catching every game.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2025.shtml

No, without him, someone else would be catching.

Herrera is worth that much because he has hit like prime JD Martinez when he's been on the field.
Pages is worth so little because he is a near complete liability on offense.

Pages is playing because of Herrera. That should be factored in Herrera's WAR. It is also why the DH doesn't necessarily increase offense. Put a poor defender on the field and the other team gains offense.

You understand the symphony of baseball, whereas others are reading a note on a page.
Of course the 2025 debacle of trying to force Herrera behind the plate, or continuing the quexottic foolishness of Mootbaar as a high value line-up fixture, or the wreckage of jamming Mikolas into the rotation is not something WAR ever reflect - nor its adherents ever grasp.
WAR is a fiction story filled with invisible friends.

Quixotic is the word you were shooting for?

[Melville]

WAR is imperfect because it assigns an arbitrary number to each position on defense. It also fails to value correctly players who DH because they are poor fielders.

Herrera has a 1.2 WAR. Pages has a .2 WAR. Some would say catcher is the most valuable on defense of the position players but Herrera has a higher WAR despite the fact that he is a liability on defense. I would say Pages is more valuable because without him Herrera would be catching every game.


https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2025.shtml

Let's not forget that catcher is a weighted position.
Pages gets his 0.2 because he performs there.

You can only be judged on where you play.

Herrera gets a higher WAR because they can hide him at DH where his defense doesn't drive down his number. Numbers while hitting in the DH spot should not be calculated.

On the topic of the DH and more offense the flip side is without the DH Herrera would be playing defense and the other team's offense would benefit.

Herrera doesn't get a higher WAR because he can DH. He has to hit enough to overcome the massive positional adjustment for the DH (-17.5 runs) compared to catcher (+12.5 runs) over a full season. That's 30 runs or 3 WAR he loses if he hit exactly the same over a full season playing DH vs. playing catcher. Is his defense at catcher -30 runs bad? We don't know. For his career he has -10 DRS at catcher, in 721 innings (80 games) which is about half a season, if catcher's played all 162 games, which they don't. If you merely extrapolated his defensive metrics across a full season he'd come out ahead as a catcher by 10 runs (+30 positional adjustment, -20 DRS), or 1 WAR.

Statcast defensive metrics have him at -3 runs over his career (80 games) so he'd be losing even more value at DH if you don't trust DRS.

Herrera's numbers while in the DH spot should absolutely be counted. He if played half a year at DH and half at catcher he'd get half the DH positional adjustment (-17.5/2 = -9 runs) and half the catcher positional adjustment (+12.5/2 = +6 runs) for a total positional adjustment of -3 runs (-2.5 to be exact).

Things that aid the other teams offense (stealing bases, advancing on passed balls, etc.) are factored into the catching defense portion of WAR.

DH receives a positional adjustment from what position? It appears all positions are assigned different # of RUNS?

It's not relative to a certain position. Each position gets a positional adjustment (scaled to a full season), and a player's season positional adjustment is a weighted average of all the positions they played and how often they played them.

Positional adjustments (all are per 162 defensive games):
Catcher: +12.5 runs
First Base: -12.5 runs
Second Base: +2.5 runs
Third Base: +2.5 runs
Shortstop: +7.5 runs
Left Field: -7.5 runs
Center Field: +2.5 runs
Right Field: -7.5 runs
Designated Hitter: -17.5 runs

So a DH who never takes the field costs his team -17.5 runs??!!??
Oh my.
You couldn't make up such nonsense if you tried.
WAR, of course, does exactly that.

[Melville]

WAR is imperfect because it assigns an arbitrary number to each position on defense. It also fails to value correctly players who DH because they are poor fielders.

Herrera has a 1.2 WAR. Pages has a .2 WAR. Some would say catcher is the most valuable on defense of the position players but Herrera has a higher WAR despite the fact that he is a liability on defense. I would say Pages is more valuable because without him Herrera would be catching every game.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2025.shtml

No, without him, someone else would be catching.

Herrera is worth that much because he has hit like prime JD Martinez when he's been on the field.
Pages is worth so little because he is a near complete liability on offense.

Pages is playing because of Herrera. That should be factored in Herrera's WAR. It is also why the DH doesn't necessarily increase offense. Put a poor defender on the field and the other team gains offense.

You understand the symphony of baseball, whereas others are reading a note on a page.
Of course the 2025 debacle of trying to force Herrera behind the plate, or continuing the quexottic foolishness of Mootbaar as a high value line-up fixture, or the wreckage of jamming Mikolas into the rotation is not something WAR ever reflect - nor its adherents ever grasp.
WAR is a fiction story filled with invisible friends.

Quixotic is the word you were shooting for?

Thank you.
Autofill on my phone
Should have spotted that.
Much like WAR.
Incorrect autofill.

[JDW]

WAR is imperfect because it assigns an arbitrary number to each position on defense. It also fails to value correctly players who DH because they are poor fielders.

Herrera has a 1.2 WAR. Pages has a .2 WAR. Some would say catcher is the most valuable on defense of the position players but Herrera has a higher WAR despite the fact that he is a liability on defense. I would say Pages is more valuable because without him Herrera would be catching every game.


https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/STL/2025.shtml

Let's not forget that catcher is a weighted position.
Pages gets his 0.2 because he performs there.

You can only be judged on where you play.

Herrera gets a higher WAR because they can hide him at DH where his defense doesn't drive down his number. Numbers while hitting in the DH spot should not be calculated.

On the topic of the DH and more offense the flip side is without the DH Herrera would be playing defense and the other team's offense would benefit.

Herrera doesn't get a higher WAR because he can DH. He has to hit enough to overcome the massive positional adjustment for the DH (-17.5 runs) compared to catcher (+12.5 runs) over a full season. That's 30 runs or 3 WAR he loses if he hit exactly the same over a full season playing DH vs. playing catcher. Is his defense at catcher -30 runs bad? We don't know. For his career he has -10 DRS at catcher, in 721 innings (80 games) which is about half a season, if catcher's played all 162 games, which they don't. If you merely extrapolated his defensive metrics across a full season he'd come out ahead as a catcher by 10 runs (+30 positional adjustment, -20 DRS), or 1 WAR.

Statcast defensive metrics have him at -3 runs over his career (80 games) so he'd be losing even more value at DH if you don't trust DRS.

Herrera's numbers while in the DH spot should absolutely be counted. He if played half a year at DH and half at catcher he'd get half the DH positional adjustment (-17.5/2 = -9 runs) and half the catcher positional adjustment (+12.5/2 = +6 runs) for a total positional adjustment of -3 runs (-2.5 to be exact).

Things that aid the other teams offense (stealing bases, advancing on passed balls, etc.) are factored into the catching defense portion of WAR.

DH receives a positional adjustment from what position? It appears all positions are assigned different # of RUNS?

It's not relative to a certain position. Each position gets a positional adjustment (scaled to a full season), and a player's season positional adjustment is a weighted average of all the positions they played and how often they played them.

Positional adjustments (all are per 162 defensive games):
Catcher: +12.5 runs
First Base: -12.5 runs
Second Base: +2.5 runs
Third Base: +2.5 runs
Shortstop: +7.5 runs
Left Field: -7.5 runs
Center Field: +2.5 runs
Right Field: -7.5 runs
Designated Hitter: -17.5 runs

So a DH who never takes the field costs his team -17.5 runs??!!??
Oh my.
You couldn't make up such nonsense if you tried.
WAR, of course, does exactly that.

Geesh, I'd have to think it's prorated dependent on how much you DH.
That's w/o looking up or reading about it, just a bit of common sense. You should try it some time.