When the collective bargaining agreement ends after 2026

[sp25]

The problem is teams like Miami, the A's, and many others have financial problems to where they cannot afford to make an honest attempt at contention. The DH has nothing to do with that.

Just imagine the revenue differences for big/small market teams.

Imagine a typical Marlins home game. What's the ticket price 10 bucks? What about a Yankee game. Probably 100 bucks a ticket. And then you're talking about a sellout crowd vs <10,000. For 81 games. And then think about the additional money the fans are spending on food/bev, merch/jerseys etc at the game.

The revenue differences between the two teams must be just massive.

This is what has to be looked at in the next CBA. I don't know what they're gonna do. The fact that two teams are playing in minor league stadiums right now with no plan in site for 2026+ is a black eye on the league.

Add to that the discrepancies in local TV revenues.

[ICCFIM2]

There will be only one - issue. Competitive balance. They MUST figure out a way for smaller market teams to at least pretend they can build a team and win a WS title on occasion. As it stands there is no reason for a 5 year old boy in Pittsburgh to dream of his favorite Pirates player allstar and expect him to be on the team for life and lead them to a title.

Prediction - there WILL be a work stoppage. There WILL be major moves to make it more competitive. It WILL fall short of where it needs to go.

As for DH no one cares.

There has never been a salary cap in MLB. Attendance isn't down due to that. National League is playing American League baseball. Boring. Static. Repetitive.

I think you are too focused on a narrow issue here. Baseball's problem is that coming into the season, out of 30 teams, essentially 10 of them had no chance of making the playoffs before the season started despite the expanded number of teams in the playoffs. Of the remaining 20 teams, only 6-8 are really serious contenders. That means 22-24 of 30 teams don't have much of a chance to win. There have always been bad teams. But, the difference between the haves and the have nots has never been greater.

Baseball has to try and bridge that gap. But given the revenue disparity among the teams, it is hard to do because the owners won't even agree on how to do it much less the owners and the players. Even putting in a 100% payroll tax for payrolls exceeding $300M doesn't seem to work. I think at a minimum in the next bargaining, they need to get rid of gimmicks related to deferred money. The gross value of the contract is spread over the term of the contract in some way and the luxury tax is applied to that base. 100% for payrolls above $300M. Then they need to get a floor of $100M payroll. If some teams can't afford it and have to relocate, so be it.

Finally, if they are going to bring gambling into baseball, they need to spread that money pro-rata. Teams can't be cutting their own deals on local broadcasting deals. That provides too much opportunity for problems that could really kill the game. By spreading gambling revenues evenly, more or less from the beginning, it stops the disparity from getting larger based on another revenue stream.

I am not sure what other issues there are, but, I think those are important. Probably also need to address Japanese players coming over like Sasaki so they don't all end up with the Dodgers. There needs to be some type of draft.

[Alex Reyes Cy Young]

Pitchers hitting is beyond stupid. Let's have celebrity weekends too and let them hit like in a celebrity softball game.

[ScotchMIrish]

There will be only one - issue. Competitive balance. They MUST figure out a way for smaller market teams to at least pretend they can build a team and win a WS title on occasion. As it stands there is no reason for a 5 year old boy in Pittsburgh to dream of his favorite Pirates player allstar and expect him to be on the team for life and lead them to a title.

Prediction - there WILL be a work stoppage. There WILL be major moves to make it more competitive. It WILL fall short of where it needs to go.

As for DH no one cares.

There has never been a salary cap in MLB. Attendance isn't down due to that. National League is playing American League baseball. Boring. Static. Repetitive.

I think you are too focused on a narrow issue here. Baseball's problem is that coming into the season, out of 30 teams, essentially 10 of them had no chance of making the playoffs before the season started despite the expanded number of teams in the playoffs. Of the remaining 20 teams, only 6-8 are really serious contenders. That means 22-24 of 30 teams don't have much of a chance to win. There have always been bad teams. But, the difference between the haves and the have nots has never been greater.

Baseball has to try and bridge that gap. But given the revenue disparity among the teams, it is hard to do because the owners won't even agree on how to do it much less the owners and the players. Even putting in a 100% payroll tax for payrolls exceeding $300M doesn't seem to work. I think at a minimum in the next bargaining, they need to get rid of gimmicks related to deferred money. The gross value of the contract is spread over the term of the contract in some way and the luxury tax is applied to that base. 100% for payrolls above $300M. Then they need to get a floor of $100M payroll. If some teams can't afford it and have to relocate, so be it.

Finally, if they are going to bring gambling into baseball, they need to spread that money pro-rata. Teams can't be cutting their own deals on local broadcasting deals. That provides too much opportunity for problems that could really kill the game. By spreading gambling revenues evenly, more or less from the beginning, it stops the disparity from getting larger based on another revenue stream.

I am not sure what other issues there are, but, I think those are important. Probably also need to address Japanese players coming over like Sasaki so they don't all end up with the Dodgers. There needs to be some type of draft.

That's a big issue and would do a lot to increase but the decline has come as a result of DH. It isn't either/or.

[An Old Friend]

There will be only one - issue. Competitive balance. They MUST figure out a way for smaller market teams to at least pretend they can build a team and win a WS title on occasion. As it stands there is no reason for a 5 year old boy in Pittsburgh to dream of his favorite Pirates player allstar and expect him to be on the team for life and lead them to a title.

Prediction - there WILL be a work stoppage. There WILL be major moves to make it more competitive. It WILL fall short of where it needs to go.

As for DH no one cares.

There has never been a salary cap in MLB. Attendance isn't down due to that. National League is playing American League baseball. Boring. Static. Repetitive.

I think you are too focused on a narrow issue here. Baseball's problem is that coming into the season, out of 30 teams, essentially 10 of them had no chance of making the playoffs before the season started despite the expanded number of teams in the playoffs. Of the remaining 20 teams, only 6-8 are really serious contenders. That means 22-24 of 30 teams don't have much of a chance to win. There have always been bad teams. But, the difference between the haves and the have nots has never been greater.

Baseball has to try and bridge that gap. But given the revenue disparity among the teams, it is hard to do because the owners won't even agree on how to do it much less the owners and the players. Even putting in a 100% payroll tax for payrolls exceeding $300M doesn't seem to work. I think at a minimum in the next bargaining, they need to get rid of gimmicks related to deferred money. The gross value of the contract is spread over the term of the contract in some way and the luxury tax is applied to that base. 100% for payrolls above $300M. Then they need to get a floor of $100M payroll. If some teams can't afford it and have to relocate, so be it.

Finally, if they are going to bring gambling into baseball, they need to spread that money pro-rata. Teams can't be cutting their own deals on local broadcasting deals. That provides too much opportunity for problems that could really kill the game. By spreading gambling revenues evenly, more or less from the beginning, it stops the disparity from getting larger based on another revenue stream.

I am not sure what other issues there are, but, I think those are important. Probably also need to address Japanese players coming over like Sasaki so they don't all end up with the Dodgers. There needs to be some type of draft.

That's a big issue and would do a lot to increase but the decline has come as a result of DH. It isn't either/or.

How many people do you think it would take telling you that you're wrong for you to eventually understand and acknowledge that you're wrong? Genuinely curious.

You've had a decent number of people respond to you already in the thread, and none come anywhere near agreement with you. Does that not resonate?

[Jatalk]

the biggest issue is not having a salary cap similar to the other pro sports leagues --- when the dodgers (and others) can buy everyone they want and gladly pay the luxury tax there is a huge problem.

You nailed it.

[BrockFloodMaris]

The problem is teams like Miami, the A's, and many others have financial problems to where they cannot afford to make an honest attempt at contention. The DH has nothing to do with that.

Just imagine the revenue differences for big/small market teams.

Imagine a typical Marlins home game. What's the ticket price 10 bucks? What about a Yankee game. Probably 100 bucks a ticket. And then you're talking about a sellout crowd vs <10,000. For 81 games. And then think about the additional money the fans are spending on food/bev, merch/jerseys etc at the game.

The revenue differences between the two teams must be just massive.

This is what has to be looked at in the next CBA. I don't know what they're gonna do. The fact that two teams are playing in minor league stadiums right now with no plan in site for 2026+ is a black eye on the league.

In 2024, six MLB teams generated over $500M in revenue, while three teams generated less than $300M. I’d like to see a salary cap and floor to help create competitive balance. I think Manfred generally agrees. It may take a lockout to get the union to consider a cap.

[Youboughtit]

the biggest issue is not having a salary cap similar to the other pro sports leagues --- when the dodgers (and others) can buy everyone they want and gladly pay the luxury tax there is a huge problem.

Full revenue sharing is only way to make that happen and the big markets won’t let that happen

[Clark Kimble]

lol letting pitchers hit isn’t the solution to making it less boring lol watching pitchers hit was boring even the good ones still sucked

The last and final season of NL pitchers batting had the Oakland A's at Phoenix, with A's pitcher Chris Bassitt being forced to bat, with the NL opponent's home rules. He stood there in the farthest corner possible from home plate resting the bat on his shoulder with no interest whatsoever. D'backs announcer Bob Brenly said during Bassitt's useless plate appearance "This is why the NL is coming to the National League."

We don't need pitchers batting, and we don't need non-pitchers pitching.

[desertrat23]

There will be only one - issue. Competitive balance. They MUST figure out a way for smaller market teams to at least pretend they can build a team and win a WS title on occasion. As it stands there is no reason for a 5 year old boy in Pittsburgh to dream of his favorite Pirates player allstar and expect him to be on the team for life and lead them to a title.

Prediction - there WILL be a work stoppage. There WILL be major moves to make it more competitive. It WILL fall short of where it needs to go.

As for DH no one cares.

There has never been a salary cap in MLB. Attendance isn't down due to that. National League is playing American League baseball. Boring. Static. Repetitive.

I think you are too focused on a narrow issue here. Baseball's problem is that coming into the season, out of 30 teams, essentially 10 of them had no chance of making the playoffs before the season started despite the expanded number of teams in the playoffs. Of the remaining 20 teams, only 6-8 are really serious contenders. That means 22-24 of 30 teams don't have much of a chance to win. There have always been bad teams. But, the difference between the haves and the have nots has never been greater.

Baseball has to try and bridge that gap. But given the revenue disparity among the teams, it is hard to do because the owners won't even agree on how to do it much less the owners and the players. Even putting in a 100% payroll tax for payrolls exceeding $300M doesn't seem to work. I think at a minimum in the next bargaining, they need to get rid of gimmicks related to deferred money. The gross value of the contract is spread over the term of the contract in some way and the luxury tax is applied to that base. 100% for payrolls above $300M. Then they need to get a floor of $100M payroll. If some teams can't afford it and have to relocate, so be it.

Finally, if they are going to bring gambling into baseball, they need to spread that money pro-rata. Teams can't be cutting their own deals on local broadcasting deals. That provides too much opportunity for problems that could really kill the game. By spreading gambling revenues evenly, more or less from the beginning, it stops the disparity from getting larger based on another revenue stream.

I am not sure what other issues there are, but, I think those are important. Probably also need to address Japanese players coming over like Sasaki so they don't all end up with the Dodgers. There needs to be some type of draft.

That's a big issue and would do a lot to increase but the decline has come as a result of DH. It isn't either/or.

No one under the age of 50 cares that the DH went away, or they’ve accepted it. Younger people want offense. Older folks aren’t the target market.

[ramfandan]

The two major issues will be : revenue sharing (how the owners and players divide up the revenues ) and secondly , a salary cap (which would proably include a 'salary floor' requiring the smaller market teams to spend X amount of $$ on player salaries >)

Needless to say , the issues are complex . Owners see revenuues as ticket sales, food , merch sales, TV rights while players contend revenues include more than that Ex. adjacent real estate money making by owners.. For St. Louis, that would be DeWitts revenues on Ballpark Village . Players contend owners derive the big bucks due to the games played while owners don't want to concede those $$ are part of the baseball revenue. Just one example.

Salary cap has been a sticky one ..Football and BB have it . A cap for owners means they can spend less $$$ for their labor (the players ) .. A salary cap would need to include some 'salary floor' provision to ensure that the teams spending less than current $$ are not just going to pocket the monies . Teams like the Pirates , for example, get some monies from the league but the players union don't see them wanting to spend $$ to improve their team.

In business, when a strike or lockout , the owners may take the positon Heck , we will get new labor guys in here replacing the current guys.
In baseball, the laborers ARE the product for the owners. If Ohtani, Betts, Freemans etc don't play and the major league caliber guys, who replaces them ... Triple A guys NADA ! Fans will not turn out to see a lesser product . Football tried it .. started the USFL .. it fell flat . People want to see the best players and will pay top dollar to do it .

[illiniriles]

Scotch Irish, I'm right there with you. And I know you are a good baseball man, just like me. I don't know if the terrific posters ala RBIrules will remember many of my posts, but I know that you and I both have lamented that the Universal DH has almost ruined the game for us. And yes, I, like you don't watch or listen to the product nearly as much any more. We're not alone. We're just part of the silent majority. As far as all of the arguments in favor for instituting the Universal DH, I can refute every single one. But we get shouted down by those that support it.
Just a short list of folks that loved NL (no DH) baseball: Mark McGwyre, TLR, Adam Wainwright, Joe Madden, hell, even Dusty Baker. Believe me, Scotch, we're not alone. And if you ever see me at a Redbirds game, I'll be the bad (donkey), 66 year old cranky old man in the replica Cardinals Jersey that I've had the local seamstress alter with a DH in a circle with a diagonal line through it where the number should go. And what does it say for a name? NOLIKEY, IHATEIT, HOWCUM, DINTASKME, WHY, BADIDEA, or RILES. That's all I've had made thus far. Respect y'all that have divergent opinions from Scotch and myself, but as my dad used to say to me, "You're right, the world is wrong"
Sorry for the long reply

[ICCFIM2]

The problem is teams like Miami, the A's, and many others have financial problems to where they cannot afford to make an honest attempt at contention. The DH has nothing to do with that.

Just imagine the revenue differences for big/small market teams.

Imagine a typical Marlins home game. What's the ticket price 10 bucks? What about a Yankee game. Probably 100 bucks a ticket. And then you're talking about a sellout crowd vs <10,000. For 81 games. And then think about the additional money the fans are spending on food/bev, merch/jerseys etc at the game.

The revenue differences between the two teams must be just massive.

This is what has to be looked at in the next CBA. I don't know what they're gonna do. The fact that two teams are playing in minor league stadiums right now with no plan in site for 2026+ is a black eye on the league.

In 2024, six MLB teams generated over $500M in revenue, while three teams generated less than $300M. I’d like to see a salary cap and floor to help create competitive balance. I think Manfred generally agrees. It may take a lockout to get the union to consider a cap.

Given the huge revenue disparity, I don't think a salary cap is realistic. We know the players don't like it. Also, the owners of the 6 teams with over $500M of revenue are never going to agree to do that. If the owners themselves are not unanimous, it won't even be an issue on the table. Like I stated above, the owners first need to agree to share gambling revenue so the disparity doesn't get worse. Then, they need to have a floor that is at least $100M. There are 5 teams under $100M now according to Cots. One the Mariners are at $68M. I don't know exactly what gambling revenue sharing does exactly to the numbers or moving the luxury tax up. Perhaps it suggests a floor closer to $110M. In any case, that should more or less prevent outright tanking.

But these issues are complicated and who knows what all comes crawling out...

[ICCFIM2]

Scotch Irish, I'm right there with you. And I know you are a good baseball man, just like me. I don't know if the terrific posters ala RBIrules will remember many of my posts, but I know that you and I both have lamented that the Universal DH has almost ruined the game for us. And yes, I, like you don't watch or listen to the product nearly as much any more. We're not alone. We're just part of the silent majority. As far as all of the arguments in favor for instituting the Universal DH, I can refute every single one. But we get shouted down by those that support it.
Just a short list of folks that loved NL (no DH) baseball: Mark McGwyre, TLR, Adam Wainwright, Joe Madden, hell, even Dusty Baker. Believe me, Scotch, we're not alone. And if you ever see me at a Redbirds game, I'll be the bad (donkey), 66 year old cranky old man in the replica Cardinals Jersey that I've had the local seamstress alter with a DH in a circle with a diagonal line through it where the number should go. And what does it say for a name? NOLIKEY, IHATEIT, HOWCUM, DINTASKME, WHY, BADIDEA, or RILES. That's all I've had made thus far. Respect y'all that have divergent opinions from Scotch and myself, but as my dad used to say to me, "You're right, the world is wrong"
Sorry for the long reply

I didn't like the universal DH either. Since this thread started, I have been looking for empirical evidence to support the notion that its introduction is what caused attendance to go down. The universal DH went into effect in 2022. MLB average attendance 2022 - 2024 was 26, 566, 29,114, 29,373 and is down this year 27,973. The attendance figures for 2020 and 2021 are messed up because of COVID. Since attendance went up each of the first three years the DH was in place, the statistics don't back that up. I looked for articles agreeing with this premise and could not really find any other than some people griping they did not like it.

There are a number of articles on the subject about why fan attendance is down. One interesting theory that is in several articles is MLB now showing games on local tv and using multiple outlets to show games. For example Fan Dual, which I find easy to use, doesn't carry all the games. Some surveys have shown that fans are frustrated with having to purchase new apps, then after purchasing them, finding out it doesn't give them everything they wanted. It has been a huge turn off to some fans and these surveys believe that process has negatively impacted attendance. That goes along with the theory baseball is less popular with younger people and as the old stalwarts die out, MLB has to figure out how to generate more interest with the younger generation.

So I hear your comments. But....

[makesnosense]

Scotch Irish, I'm right there with you. And I know you are a good baseball man, just like me. I don't know if the terrific posters ala RBIrules will remember many of my posts, but I know that you and I both have lamented that the Universal DH has almost ruined the game for us. And yes, I, like you don't watch or listen to the product nearly as much any more. We're not alone. We're just part of the silent majority. As far as all of the arguments in favor for instituting the Universal DH, I can refute every single one. But we get shouted down by those that support it.
Just a short list of folks that loved NL (no DH) baseball: Mark McGwyre, TLR, Adam Wainwright, Joe Madden, hell, even Dusty Baker. Believe me, Scotch, we're not alone. And if you ever see me at a Redbirds game, I'll be the bad (donkey), 66 year old cranky old man in the replica Cardinals Jersey that I've had the local seamstress alter with a DH in a circle with a diagonal line through it where the number should go. And what does it say for a name? NOLIKEY, IHATEIT, HOWCUM, DINTASKME, WHY, BADIDEA, or RILES. That's all I've had made thus far. Respect y'all that have divergent opinions from Scotch and myself, but as my dad used to say to me, "You're right, the world is wrong"
Sorry for the long reply

I’m your age . I love the DH. I don’t know what took so long for the NL to get it . It makes for a more enjoyable game. But as many have stated so well it is not an issue that is in need of fixing. Attendance is not affected by having the DH. There have been some good suggestions on how to address problems. I think contraction is an idea . It won’t happen but four less teams would help.

[WLTFE]

NL owners need to get rid of the DH. The experiment has failed. Attendance is down. TV deal collapsing due to viewership.

I doubt they are smart enough to do it or tough enough to stand up to the unions.

Not happening. Pitchers don’t want to hit. Owners don’t want their pitchers to hit. Majority of fans don’t want to see pitchers hitting. TV deal and viewership has nothing to do with the DH.

You need a different hill.

+1...that ship has sailed...