Who Do we Owe a Bigger Apology To: Mo or Oli?

[desertrat23]

I do not speak for "we", but as for myself, I owe neither of them an apology. I have criticized both, and for good reasons, in my mind. The current resurgence of the team does not indicate that Mo and Oli have suddenly become better at their jobs.

Really?

Yes sir, really.
[/quote

Better at their jobs? How about Mo. 2 losing seasons in the last 25. 2 World Championships. Of course some don’t like those bow ties and a sweater over his shoulders.

Cranny Playbook Page 1: When in doubt, cite quarter-century old accomplishments.

[woofy25]

When you review the organization top to bottom Mo has been a disaster. Let the farm system deteriorate. Multiple bad trades and transactions. Hired weak managers fired good ones. Leaving the organization worse off than he found it. Of course ownership shares the blame.

I won’t judge Oli until later in the year. But he is not a managing wizard.

How did he hire weak manager(s) and fire good one(s)?

Matheny. Oli is questionable. Fired Schildt.

Shildt wasn’t that good. Most here wanted him gone before the winning streak. Mo hasn’t done a good job of hiring managers, that’s for sure.

The people who think Shildt is not a good manager just don’t get it. Was he perfect, no. Has he made the playoffs every season he’s been a manager from OD? Yes. Did he take over a .500 team and finish 41-28 while immediately improving the fundamentals of defense and base running? Yes. He may have a different philosophy in certain aspects of the game than his genius detractors. That doesn’t make him a bad manager. Hes managed at a 91 win pace over his career. Pretty darn good

He was regularly called "bubbles" and regularly made fun of for<checks notes> the size of his arms.

The things you list regarding the season he took over? Simply shows how easy the fix was, meaning Matheny was FAR worse than anyone here ever thought, including his most rabid detractors.

And, if he'd ended up with the Pirates instead of the Padres his win pace would be in the 70s.

You’re making statements that are merely opinion. You provided no substance to back up your claims.
In 2024, Shildt managed the Padres to the playoffs with their two best pitchers, Musgrave and darvish making 19 and 16 starts and their best player, tatis, playing 102 games, along with XB missing 50 games.

For those who think Shildt was a bad manager, the onus is on you to prove why. All his success suggests otherwise. Trying making a case without just saying matheny bad, shildt not as bad. Stupid argument.

[Rojo Johnson]

I do not speak for "we", but as for myself, I owe neither of them an apology. I have criticized both, and for good reasons, in my mind. The current resurgence of the team does not indicate that Mo and Oli have suddenly become better at their jobs.

Really?

Yes sir, really.
[/quote

Better at their jobs? How about Mo. 2 losing seasons in the last 25. 2 World Championships. Of course some don’t like those bow ties and a sweater over his shoulders.

Put a sock in it, dude. You can’t even properly use the quote function. Yet, you think you can offer baseball advice?

[Cranny]

I do not speak for "we", but as for myself, I owe neither of them an apology. I have criticized both, and for good reasons, in my mind. The current resurgence of the team does not indicate that Mo and Oli have suddenly become better at their jobs.

Really?

Yes sir, really.
[/quote

Better at their jobs? How about Mo. 2 losing seasons in the last 25. 2 World Championships. Of course some don’t like those bow ties and a sweater over his shoulders.

Put a sock in it, dude. You can’t even properly use the quote function. Yet, you think you can offer baseball advice?

Stuff it, Rojo. If I am responding to someone’s post I use the quote function. If it’s a general statement I don’t. You should learn the difference, “dude”.

[desertrat23]

I do not speak for "we", but as for myself, I owe neither of them an apology. I have criticized both, and for good reasons, in my mind. The current resurgence of the team does not indicate that Mo and Oli have suddenly become better at their jobs.

Really?

Yes sir, really.

Better at their jobs? How about Mo. 2 losing seasons in the last 25. 2 World Championships. Of course some don’t like those bow ties and a sweater over his shoulders.

Put a sock in it, dude. You can’t even properly use the quote function. Yet, you think you can offer baseball advice?

Stuff it, Rojo. If I am responding to someone’s post I use the quote function. If it’s a general statement I don’t. You should learn the difference, “dude”.

Someone calls you out for blatantly ignoring the board norms as usual and you tell them to “stuff it?” Classy…

[AnExParrot]

When you review the organization top to bottom Mo has been a disaster. Let the farm system deteriorate. Multiple bad trades and transactions. Hired weak managers fired good ones. Leaving the organization worse off than he found it. Of course ownership shares the blame.

I won’t judge Oli until later in the year. But he is not a managing wizard.

How did he hire weak manager(s) and fire good one(s)?

Matheny. Oli is questionable. Fired Schildt.

Shildt wasn’t that good. Most here wanted him gone before the winning streak. Mo hasn’t done a good job of hiring managers, that’s for sure.

The people who think Shildt is not a good manager just don’t get it. Was he perfect, no. Has he made the playoffs every season he’s been a manager from OD? Yes. Did he take over a .500 team and finish 41-28 while immediately improving the fundamentals of defense and base running? Yes. He may have a different philosophy in certain aspects of the game than his genius detractors. That doesn’t make him a bad manager. Hes managed at a 91 win pace over his career. Pretty darn good

He was regularly called "bubbles" and regularly made fun of for<checks notes> the size of his arms.

The things you list regarding the season he took over? Simply shows how easy the fix was, meaning Matheny was FAR worse than anyone here ever thought, including his most rabid detractors.

And, if he'd ended up with the Pirates instead of the Padres his win pace would be in the 70s.

You’re making statements that are merely opinion. You provided no substance to back up your claims.
In 2024, Shildt managed the Padres to the playoffs with their two best pitchers, Musgrave and darvish making 19 and 16 starts and their best player, tatis, playing 102 games, along with XB missing 50 games.

For those who think Shildt was a bad manager, the onus is on you to prove why. All his success suggests otherwise. Trying making a case without just saying matheny bad, shildt not as bad. Stupid argument.

It is a fact, that people here called him "bubbles" and made fun of his scrawny arms - it was a nightly occurrence. As were the complaints about his managing. That is not opinion, that is a fact of Cards Talk. Were you not using the board when he was here or is your memory just terrible?

[MrPostman01]

I think OP owes us all an apology.

Whom not who!

[Ronnie Dobbs]

Yes, really. Let's not pretend this is part of some grand, master plan. Remember the end-of-season presser? They told us the goal wasn't to compete, but to reset the payroll and the roster. Then their plan was to trade their most visible and most expensive player. It was only when that didn't work that the narrative started to shift to "hey, maybe we can win."

Correct. Trading Arenado was priority number 1, 2, and 3 in the offseason, according to Mo. And that was after Contreras and Gray told him that they preferred to stay. So they would have traded all three of they could, which I believe would have been the right move, honestly.

Don't get me wrong. It's nice to see them winning now. They could be winning even more had they started this "reset" process a little earlier instead of remaining in denial about the status of the franchise and being pretty bad the last two years. And we're almost a third of the way through the season. We're an injury or two away from disaster. So let's not start throwing victory parades for the front office just yet.

And I say this as a relative front office defender. Overall I think Mo will be a Cardinal HOFer, and rightfully so. DeWitt has been a great owner who rescued this franchise. Doesn't mean they're perfect or haven't screwed up or fallen behind the times. And credit to them for finally recognizing that they needed to make a change, and we'll see how that pans out in the future. Hopefully it's just not an excuse to skimp on MLB payroll.

But yea, no one is owed an apology. Don't be ridiculous.

[Ronnie Dobbs]

It is a fact, that people here called him "bubbles" and made fun of his scrawny arms - it was a nightly occurrence. As were the complaints about his managing. That is not opinion, that is a fact of Cards Talk. Were you not using the board when he was here or is your memory just terrible?

And the fact that he never played minor league ball. And also he wore glasses. They thought he was a stat nerd, non real "baseball man."

[desertrat23]

Yes, really. Let's not pretend this is part of some grand, master plan. Remember the end-of-season presser? They told us the goal wasn't to compete, but to reset the payroll and the roster. Then their plan was to trade their most visible and most expensive player. It was only when that didn't work that the narrative started to shift to "hey, maybe we can win."

Correct. Trading Arenado was priority number 1, 2, and 3 in the offseason, according to Mo. And that was after Contreras and Gray told him that they preferred to stay. So they would have traded all three of they could, which I believe would have been the right move, honestly.

Don't get me wrong. It's nice to see them winning now. They could be winning even more had they started this "reset" process a little earlier instead of remaining in denial about the status of the franchise and being pretty bad the last two years. And we're almost a third of the way through the season. We're an injury or two away from disaster. So let's not start throwing victory parades for the front office just yet.

And I say this as a relative front office defender. Overall I think Mo will be a Cardinal HOFer, and rightfully so. DeWitt has been a great owner who rescued this franchise. Doesn't mean they're perfect or haven't screwed up or fallen behind the times. And credit to them for finally recognizing that they needed to make a change, and we'll see how that pans out in the future. Hopefully it's just not an excuse to skimp on MLB payroll.

But yea, no one is owed an apology. Don't be ridiculous.

Extremely well said. Mo and DeWitt have done an amazing job on the whole, and it's foolish to say otherwise. It's also foolish to pretend like they haven't slipped recently. For some reason both can't be true for a lot of folks on here.

[woofy25]

When you review the organization top to bottom Mo has been a disaster. Let the farm system deteriorate. Multiple bad trades and transactions. Hired weak managers fired good ones. Leaving the organization worse off than he found it. Of course ownership shares the blame.

I won’t judge Oli until later in the year. But he is not a managing wizard.

How did he hire weak manager(s) and fire good one(s)?

Matheny. Oli is questionable. Fired Schildt.

Shildt wasn’t that good. Most here wanted him gone before the winning streak. Mo hasn’t done a good job of hiring managers, that’s for sure.

The people who think Shildt is not a good manager just don’t get it. Was he perfect, no. Has he made the playoffs every season he’s been a manager from OD? Yes. Did he take over a .500 team and finish 41-28 while immediately improving the fundamentals of defense and base running? Yes. He may have a different philosophy in certain aspects of the game than his genius detractors. That doesn’t make him a bad manager. Hes managed at a 91 win pace over his career. Pretty darn good

He was regularly called "bubbles" and regularly made fun of for<checks notes> the size of his arms.

The things you list regarding the season he took over? Simply shows how easy the fix was, meaning Matheny was FAR worse than anyone here ever thought, including his most rabid detractors.

And, if he'd ended up with the Pirates instead of the Padres his win pace would be in the 70s.

You’re making statements that are merely opinion. You provided no substance to back up your claims.
In 2024, Shildt managed the Padres to the playoffs with their two best pitchers, Musgrave and darvish making 19 and 16 starts and their best player, tatis, playing 102 games, along with XB missing 50 games.

For those who think Shildt was a bad manager, the onus is on you to prove why. All his success suggests otherwise. Trying making a case without just saying matheny bad, shildt not as bad. Stupid argument.

It is a fact, that people here called him "bubbles" and made fun of his scrawny arms - it was a nightly occurrence. As were the complaints about his managing. That is not opinion, that is a fact of Cards Talk. Were you not using the board when he was here or is your memory just terrible?

Again you’re providing zero substance. Cards Talk complaints doesn’t make it so

[Cranny]

I do not speak for "we", but as for myself, I owe neither of them an apology. I have criticized both, and for good reasons, in my mind. The current resurgence of the team does not indicate that Mo and Oli have suddenly become better at their jobs.

Really?

Yes sir, really.

Better at their jobs? How about Mo. 2 losing seasons in the last 25. 2 World Championships. Of course some don’t like those bow ties and a sweater over his shoulders.

Put a sock in it, dude. You can’t even properly use the quote function. Yet, you think you can offer baseball advice?

Stuff it, Rojo. If I am responding to someone’s post I use the quote function. If it’s a general statement I don’t. You should learn the difference, “dude”.

Someone calls you out for blatantly ignoring the board norms as usual and you tell them to “stuff it?” Classy…

What’s not classy, rat, is someone like Rojo who attacks you out of the blue and also makes an untrue statement about you.

Back on apologies. The Cardinals have had tremendous success over the past 25 years. Granted, things have gotten a little stale over the past several years. But how do you anticipate Goldy, Arenado, Walker, and Gorman all going backward at the same time?

[JDW]

Yes, really. Let's not pretend this is part of some grand, master plan. Remember the end-of-season presser? They told us the goal wasn't to compete, but to reset the payroll and the roster. Then their plan was to trade their most visible and most expensive player. It was only when that didn't work that the narrative started to shift to "hey, maybe we can win."

Correct. Trading Arenado was priority number 1, 2, and 3 in the offseason, according to Mo. And that was after Contreras and Gray told him that they preferred to stay. So they would have traded all three of they could, which I believe would have been the right move, honestly.

Don't get me wrong. It's nice to see them winning now. They could be winning even more had they started this "reset" process a little earlier instead of remaining in denial about the status of the franchise and being pretty bad the last two years. And we're almost a third of the way through the season. We're an injury or two away from disaster. So let's not start throwing victory parades for the front office just yet.

And I say this as a relative front office defender. Overall I think Mo will be a Cardinal HOFer, and rightfully so. DeWitt has been a great owner who rescued this franchise. Doesn't mean they're perfect or haven't screwed up or fallen behind the times. And credit to them for finally recognizing that they needed to make a change, and we'll see how that pans out in the future. Hopefully it's just not an excuse to skimp on MLB payroll.

But yea, no one is owed an apology. Don't be ridiculous.

+1

[thetank2]

Yes, really. Let's not pretend this is part of some grand, master plan. Remember the end-of-season presser? They told us the goal wasn't to compete, but to reset the payroll and the roster. Then their plan was to trade their most visible and most expensive player. It was only when that didn't work that the narrative started to shift to "hey, maybe we can win."

Correct. Trading Arenado was priority number 1, 2, and 3 in the offseason, according to Mo. And that was after Contreras and Gray told him that they preferred to stay. So they would have traded all three of they could, which I believe would have been the right move, honestly.

Don't get me wrong. It's nice to see them winning now. They could be winning even more had they started this "reset" process a little earlier instead of remaining in denial about the status of the franchise and being pretty bad the last two years. And we're almost a third of the way through the season. We're an injury or two away from disaster. So let's not start throwing victory parades for the front office just yet.

And I say this as a relative front office defender. Overall I think Mo will be a Cardinal HOFer, and rightfully so. DeWitt has been a great owner who rescued this franchise. Doesn't mean they're perfect or haven't screwed up or fallen behind the times. And credit to them for finally recognizing that they needed to make a change, and we'll see how that pans out in the future. Hopefully it's just not an excuse to skimp on MLB payroll.

But yea, no one is owed an apology. Don't be ridiculous.

+1

-1

[desertrat23]

Yes, really. Let's not pretend this is part of some grand, master plan. Remember the end-of-season presser? They told us the goal wasn't to compete, but to reset the payroll and the roster. Then their plan was to trade their most visible and most expensive player. It was only when that didn't work that the narrative started to shift to "hey, maybe we can win."

Correct. Trading Arenado was priority number 1, 2, and 3 in the offseason, according to Mo. And that was after Contreras and Gray told him that they preferred to stay. So they would have traded all three of they could, which I believe would have been the right move, honestly.

Don't get me wrong. It's nice to see them winning now. They could be winning even more had they started this "reset" process a little earlier instead of remaining in denial about the status of the franchise and being pretty bad the last two years. And we're almost a third of the way through the season. We're an injury or two away from disaster. So let's not start throwing victory parades for the front office just yet.

And I say this as a relative front office defender. Overall I think Mo will be a Cardinal HOFer, and rightfully so. DeWitt has been a great owner who rescued this franchise. Doesn't mean they're perfect or haven't screwed up or fallen behind the times. And credit to them for finally recognizing that they needed to make a change, and we'll see how that pans out in the future. Hopefully it's just not an excuse to skimp on MLB payroll.

But yea, no one is owed an apology. Don't be ridiculous.

+1

-1

Troll.

[Hoosier59]

I believe it is true that the front office wanted to play the younger players, mainly to see how they would do given full time at bats. However, they also wanted to shed as much payroll as possible! All the no-trade clauses back fired in their faces, and had to switch strategies. Mo deserves absolutely no credit for how the team is currently playing. Oli has a good relationship with most of the players, but his managerial skills are still the same. If not for someone connected to the front office reading Cards Talk, Oli would still be running the same stupid batting order that he started out using. The line up is now, finally, constructed properly with the players on hand. However, it took Arenado moving himself down in the order to do that.