Develop Starting Pitching

[Talkin' Baseball]

If the Cardinals want to keep payroll down in years to come, develop starting pitching. If the Cardinals want to have valuable trade chips in the future, develop starting pitching. It seems trite to say that out loud, but they still, after all the yammering, don’t get it. Every pitcher that could be a starting pitcher should be used and developed as a starting pitcher- not a relief pitcher. Starting pitchers are more valuable than relief pitchers. Bullpens are relatively easy (and cheap) to fill out. Quality starters are the contracts we are loathe to pay, can’t trade for, and are tough to draft.
The Cardinals continue their pitching malpractice. They need to be finding out before ages 26, 27, 28 if a pitcher is a starter or a reliever- and whether they will be a major league pitcher, or not. Even if the Cardinals decide that a pitcher isn’t going to make it in MLB, if they decide at an earlier age, the player might still have value to another team. If they wait until the later ages, the pitcher has little to no value. The key is to figure this out before everyone else figures it out. Pallante figured this out for them last year. They still are not on track to answer the questions about Liberatore, McGreevy, Thompson, Graceffo, and possibly others. Instead, we have Mikolas, Fedde, and Matz in the rotation. I don’t hate them as pitchers, but none of them will be with the team next year or have any bearing on the team’s future. It seems more important to the future of the team to get their young pitchers on track. Are we really going to use up another year of Liberatore’s time clock and come back in 2026 and do the starting pitcher-relief pitcher dance again? Are we really going to send McGreevy to AAA again? To do what? Wait for Matz to get hurt again?
My suggestion for 2025 rotation; Gray, Pallante, McGreevy, Liberatore, Mikolas/Graceffo/Thompson.
Knocking on the door in Memphis/Springfield: Matthews, Hence, Roby, Hjerpe.

[Youboughtit]

If the Cardinals want to keep payroll down in years to come, develop starting pitching. If the Cardinals want to have valuable trade chips in the future, develop starting pitching. It seems trite to say that out loud, but they still, after all the yammering, don’t get it. Every pitcher that could be a starting pitcher should be used and developed as a starting pitcher- not a relief pitcher. Starting pitchers are more valuable than relief pitchers. Bullpens are relatively easy (and cheap) to fill out. Quality starters are the contracts we are loathe to pay, can’t trade for, and are tough to draft.
The Cardinals continue their pitching malpractice. They need to be finding out before ages 26, 27, 28 if a pitcher is a starter or a reliever- and whether they will be a major league pitcher, or not. Even if the Cardinals decide that a pitcher isn’t going to make it in MLB, if they decide at an earlier age, the player might still have value to another team. If they wait until the later ages, the pitcher has little to no value. The key is to figure this out before everyone else figures it out. Pallante figured this out for them last year. They still are not on track to answer the questions about Liberatore, McGreevy, Thompson, Graceffo, and possibly others. Instead, we have Mikolas, Fedde, and Matz in the rotation. I don’t hate them as pitchers, but none of them will be with the team next year or have any bearing on the team’s future. It seems more important to the future of the team to get their young pitchers on track. Are we really going to use up another year of Liberatore’s time clock and come back in 2026 and do the starting pitcher-relief pitcher dance again? Are we really going to send McGreevy to AAA again? To do what? Wait for Matz to get hurt again?
My suggestion for 2025 rotation; Gray, Pallante, McGreevy, Liberatore, Mikolas/Graceffo/Thompson.
Knocking on the door in Memphis/Springfield: Matthews, Hence, Roby, Hjerpe.

Must be high velo or high spin rates to be TOR SP. A group of 10 #3-5 in the rotation pitchers does nothing. Hence and Mathew’s both need to be ACEs. The others I’d don’t see as TOR caliber.

[Cranny]

If the Cardinals want to keep payroll down in years to come, develop starting pitching. If the Cardinals want to have valuable trade chips in the future, develop starting pitching. It seems trite to say that out loud, but they still, after all the yammering, don’t get it. Every pitcher that could be a starting pitcher should be used and developed as a starting pitcher- not a relief pitcher. Starting pitchers are more valuable than relief pitchers. Bullpens are relatively easy (and cheap) to fill out. Quality starters are the contracts we are loathe to pay, can’t trade for, and are tough to draft.
The Cardinals continue their pitching malpractice. They need to be finding out before ages 26, 27, 28 if a pitcher is a starter or a reliever- and whether they will be a major league pitcher, or not. Even if the Cardinals decide that a pitcher isn’t going to make it in MLB, if they decide at an earlier age, the player might still have value to another team. If they wait until the later ages, the pitcher has little to no value. The key is to figure this out before everyone else figures it out. Pallante figured this out for them last year. They still are not on track to answer the questions about Liberatore, McGreevy, Thompson, Graceffo, and possibly others. Instead, we have Mikolas, Fedde, and Matz in the rotation. I don’t hate them as pitchers, but none of them will be with the team next year or have any bearing on the team’s future. It seems more important to the future of the team to get their young pitchers on track. Are we really going to use up another year of Liberatore’s time clock and come back in 2026 and do the starting pitcher-relief pitcher dance again? Are we really going to send McGreevy to AAA again? To do what? Wait for Matz to get hurt again?
My suggestion for 2025 rotation; Gray, Pallante, McGreevy, Liberatore, Mikolas/Graceffo/Thompson.
Knocking on the door in Memphis/Springfield: Matthews, Hence, Roby, Hjerpe.

Must be high velo or high spin rates to be TOR SP. A group of 10 #3-5 in the rotation pitchers does nothing. Hence and Mathew’s both need to be ACEs. The others I’d don’t see as TOR caliber.

Roby?

[Youboughtit]

If the Cardinals want to keep payroll down in years to come, develop starting pitching. If the Cardinals want to have valuable trade chips in the future, develop starting pitching. It seems trite to say that out loud, but they still, after all the yammering, don’t get it. Every pitcher that could be a starting pitcher should be used and developed as a starting pitcher- not a relief pitcher. Starting pitchers are more valuable than relief pitchers. Bullpens are relatively easy (and cheap) to fill out. Quality starters are the contracts we are loathe to pay, can’t trade for, and are tough to draft.
The Cardinals continue their pitching malpractice. They need to be finding out before ages 26, 27, 28 if a pitcher is a starter or a reliever- and whether they will be a major league pitcher, or not. Even if the Cardinals decide that a pitcher isn’t going to make it in MLB, if they decide at an earlier age, the player might still have value to another team. If they wait until the later ages, the pitcher has little to no value. The key is to figure this out before everyone else figures it out. Pallante figured this out for them last year. They still are not on track to answer the questions about Liberatore, McGreevy, Thompson, Graceffo, and possibly others. Instead, we have Mikolas, Fedde, and Matz in the rotation. I don’t hate them as pitchers, but none of them will be with the team next year or have any bearing on the team’s future. It seems more important to the future of the team to get their young pitchers on track. Are we really going to use up another year of Liberatore’s time clock and come back in 2026 and do the starting pitcher-relief pitcher dance again? Are we really going to send McGreevy to AAA again? To do what? Wait for Matz to get hurt again?
My suggestion for 2025 rotation; Gray, Pallante, McGreevy, Liberatore, Mikolas/Graceffo/Thompson.
Knocking on the door in Memphis/Springfield: Matthews, Hence, Roby, Hjerpe.

Must be high velo or high spin rates to be TOR SP. A group of 10 #3-5 in the rotation pitchers does nothing. Hence and Mathew’s both need to be ACEs. The others I’d don’t see as TOR caliber.

Roby?
[/2025
Scouting grades: Fastball: 55 | Curveball: 60 | Slider: 50 | Changeup: 50 | Control: 50 | Overall: 45

Roby signed with the Rangers for $775,000 as the 86th overall pick in the shortened 2020 Draft and has shown flashes of being at least a midrotation starter in his four Minor League seasons since. That said, he’s only topped 100 innings once (at High-A Hickory in 2022) and didn’t throw more than 60 during the regular season in either 2023 or 2024 due to shoulder issues. He was traded from Texas to St. Louis while on the Double-A IL in the 2023 Deadline deal for Jordan Montgomery and Chris Stratton but missed more than three months of what should have been his first full season as a Cardinal last year.

The 6-foot-1 right-hander sat 94-97 mph in the Texas League before his latest stay on the shelf but was more in the 92-95 range over three Single-A rehab appearances late in the year. The heater can act like a plus pitch when the velo’s there due to a flat angle and good extension. His 80-83 mph curveball remains the best pitch in his arsenal, a real snapper that generated a ton of whiffs. He’d also show a harder slider and a low-80s changeup with tons of separation off the heat despite being a fourth pitch in terms of usage.

Righties crushed Roby in 2024, especially the four-seamer if he didn’t locate it high enough in or above the zone. He’s at his best when he’s playing a north-south game with the heat and the deuce, but there’s also no grade for health. Roby needs to be on the mound more consistently to give himself a chance at reaching his ceiling, and after being protected from the Rule 5 Draft last offseason, his 40-man clock is already ticking.

[hugeCardfan]

Chin Wei Lin may qualify.

[Talkin' Baseball]

If the Cardinals want to keep payroll down in years to come, develop starting pitching. If the Cardinals want to have valuable trade chips in the future, develop starting pitching. It seems trite to say that out loud, but they still, after all the yammering, don’t get it. Every pitcher that could be a starting pitcher should be used and developed as a starting pitcher- not a relief pitcher. Starting pitchers are more valuable than relief pitchers. Bullpens are relatively easy (and cheap) to fill out. Quality starters are the contracts we are loathe to pay, can’t trade for, and are tough to draft.
The Cardinals continue their pitching malpractice. They need to be finding out before ages 26, 27, 28 if a pitcher is a starter or a reliever- and whether they will be a major league pitcher, or not. Even if the Cardinals decide that a pitcher isn’t going to make it in MLB, if they decide at an earlier age, the player might still have value to another team. If they wait until the later ages, the pitcher has little to no value. The key is to figure this out before everyone else figures it out. Pallante figured this out for them last year. They still are not on track to answer the questions about Liberatore, McGreevy, Thompson, Graceffo, and possibly others. Instead, we have Mikolas, Fedde, and Matz in the rotation. I don’t hate them as pitchers, but none of them will be with the team next year or have any bearing on the team’s future. It seems more important to the future of the team to get their young pitchers on track. Are we really going to use up another year of Liberatore’s time clock and come back in 2026 and do the starting pitcher-relief pitcher dance again? Are we really going to send McGreevy to AAA again? To do what? Wait for Matz to get hurt again?
My suggestion for 2025 rotation; Gray, Pallante, McGreevy, Liberatore, Mikolas/Graceffo/Thompson.
Knocking on the door in Memphis/Springfield: Matthews, Hence, Roby, Hjerpe.

Must be high velo or high spin rates to be TOR SP. A group of 10 #3-5 in the rotation pitchers does nothing. Hence and Mathew’s both need to be ACEs. The others I’d don’t see as TOR caliber.

I'm only saying that I think this is the best usage of what we have. Whether or not that is enough, is another question.

[BrockFloodMaris]

If the Cardinals want to keep payroll down in years to come, develop starting pitching. If the Cardinals want to have valuable trade chips in the future, develop starting pitching. It seems trite to say that out loud, but they still, after all the yammering, don’t get it. Every pitcher that could be a starting pitcher should be used and developed as a starting pitcher- not a relief pitcher. Starting pitchers are more valuable than relief pitchers. Bullpens are relatively easy (and cheap) to fill out. Quality starters are the contracts we are loathe to pay, can’t trade for, and are tough to draft.
The Cardinals continue their pitching malpractice. They need to be finding out before ages 26, 27, 28 if a pitcher is a starter or a reliever- and whether they will be a major league pitcher, or not. Even if the Cardinals decide that a pitcher isn’t going to make it in MLB, if they decide at an earlier age, the player might still have value to another team. If they wait until the later ages, the pitcher has little to no value. The key is to figure this out before everyone else figures it out. Pallante figured this out for them last year. They still are not on track to answer the questions about Liberatore, McGreevy, Thompson, Graceffo, and possibly others. Instead, we have Mikolas, Fedde, and Matz in the rotation. I don’t hate them as pitchers, but none of them will be with the team next year or have any bearing on the team’s future. It seems more important to the future of the team to get their young pitchers on track. Are we really going to use up another year of Liberatore’s time clock and come back in 2026 and do the starting pitcher-relief pitcher dance again? Are we really going to send McGreevy to AAA again? To do what? Wait for Matz to get hurt again?
My suggestion for 2025 rotation; Gray, Pallante, McGreevy, Liberatore, Mikolas/Graceffo/Thompson.
Knocking on the door in Memphis/Springfield: Matthews, Hence, Roby, Hjerpe.

Must be high velo or high spin rates to be TOR SP. A group of 10 #3-5 in the rotation pitchers does nothing. Hence and Mathew’s both need to be ACEs. The others I’d don’t see as TOR caliber.

I'm only saying that I think this is the best usage of what we have. Whether or not that is enough, is another question.

Having a big one-two punch at the TOR is preferred, for sure. While it’s less than ideal, some teams do have success in October without dominant aces, but it’s tricky. They need to have a great lineup, defense, and bullpen.

[Punkk6]

If the Cardinals want to keep payroll down in years to come, develop starting pitching. If the Cardinals want to have valuable trade chips in the future, develop starting pitching. It seems trite to say that out loud, but they still, after all the yammering, don’t get it. Every pitcher that could be a starting pitcher should be used and developed as a starting pitcher- not a relief pitcher. Starting pitchers are more valuable than relief pitchers. Bullpens are relatively easy (and cheap) to fill out. Quality starters are the contracts we are loathe to pay, can’t trade for, and are tough to draft.
The Cardinals continue their pitching malpractice. They need to be finding out before ages 26, 27, 28 if a pitcher is a starter or a reliever- and whether they will be a major league pitcher, or not. Even if the Cardinals decide that a pitcher isn’t going to make it in MLB, if they decide at an earlier age, the player might still have value to another team. If they wait until the later ages, the pitcher has little to no value. The key is to figure this out before everyone else figures it out. Pallante figured this out for them last year. They still are not on track to answer the questions about Liberatore, McGreevy, Thompson, Graceffo, and possibly others. Instead, we have Mikolas, Fedde, and Matz in the rotation. I don’t hate them as pitchers, but none of them will be with the team next year or have any bearing on the team’s future. It seems more important to the future of the team to get their young pitchers on track. Are we really going to use up another year of Liberatore’s time clock and come back in 2026 and do the starting pitcher-relief pitcher dance again? Are we really going to send McGreevy to AAA again? To do what? Wait for Matz to get hurt again?
My suggestion for 2025 rotation; Gray, Pallante, McGreevy, Liberatore, Mikolas/Graceffo/Thompson.
Knocking on the door in Memphis/Springfield: Matthews, Hence, Roby, Hjerpe.
[/quote

Easy fix, stop [fork]ing around and hire the best in baseball at Develop Starting Pitching. No excuses do it tomorrow

[Lloyd Braun]

They haven't proven they can develop anyone

Who is the last consistent star we had internally that we developed? Matt Carpenter? That's 14 seasons ago.

Meanwhile, since then we've had one year wonders and mostly disappointment.

It needs to be said that the last three can't miss #1-overall-in-the-sport prospects (Alex Reyes, Oscar Tavares and Jordan Walker) have thus far been a massive fail for the organization.

I think it will take a half decade or more to recover from the destruction Mo did to the organization, with Bill allowing it.

[hugeCardfan]

They haven't proven they can develop anyone

Who is the last consistent star we had internally that we developed? Matt Carpenter? That's 14 seasons ago.

Meanwhile, since then we've had one year wonders and mostly disappointment.

It needs to be said that the last three can't miss #1-overall-in-the-sport prospects (Alex Reyes, Oscar Tavares and Jordan Walker) have thus far been a massive fail for the organization.

I think it will take a half decade or more to recover from the destruction Mo did to the organization, with Bill allowing it.

Allen Craig was looking great until injured. The same for Wacha. IMO Mathews will be next. I think 3 years from now we’ll be recognized for a strong pitching corps and have solid lineup with Winn, JJ, Scott II and Davis. I am heartened by how much disenchantment there is in Cardinal Nation.

[LCA1951]

From my point of view, the Cardinals went passive and cannot find their way out. Find at least one thing in which they are Very Good/Excellent. They are just mediocre or just good enough; Bland. Somebody has to have some fire and dedicate themselves to pull others with him. There was Zero Player Leadership in 2024. Get tired of the complaints and do something about it. No one who calls themselves a Cardinal fan is happy when they are dismissed on the TV Shows. I don't

[thetank2]

They haven't proven they can develop anyone

Who is the last consistent star we had internally that we developed? Matt Carpenter? That's 14 seasons ago.

Meanwhile, since then we've had one year wonders and mostly disappointment.

It needs to be said that the last three can't miss #1-overall-in-the-sport prospects (Alex Reyes, Oscar Tavares and Jordan Walker) have thus far been a massive fail for the organization.

I think it will take a half decade or more to recover from the destruction Mo did to the organization, with Bill allowing it.

Oh please!! They've been saying this for years.