Herrera. I warned about this.

[Adam2]

People in this thread seem to think that if he isn't a middle of the order bat he isn't good or valuable. If he doesn't turn out to be your 3,4,5 hitter that's ok, he's still extremely valuable in the lineup in complementary positions in the order

[Melville]

Zero XBH's in 23 PA's.
4 XBH's in 68 PA's last month.
4 XBH's in his last 91 PA's.
2 doubles in his last 35 games.
Ugly.
Some declared him a middle order bat.
I warned against that thinking.
Said he could very well be a high BA, high OBP guy - but no evidence that he can become a middle order producer.
My advice?
Keep reading.
Keep learning.

We need to cut thru the bullchit. .315 .392 .899 looks like it can be a MOTOB to me.

Same thing folks were saying about the Paper Tyler during a brief streak over a couple hundred at-bats a few years ago.
I said it didn't make him a middle order bat.
99%+ disagreed with me - and every one of them was wrong.
Again, it is always wiser to rely on facts more so than hope.
Herrera has proven he can be a very good BA/OBP guy - who has been in need of a position.
Corner outfield could be the ticket - as I advised 3 years ago.
Folks need to set reasonable expectations.
Fact is, he hit a HR tonight (that's a good thing) - but it was also his first and only XBH in 36 July PA's.
He had 4 in 68 PA's last month.
That is 5 XBH's in 104 PA's.
That's less than half of what a middle order bat should contribute at a minimum.
For the year, he now has 17 XBH's in 207 PA's - which is low compared to several of his own teammates.
That is plenty good enough for a #2 hitter with an OBP of .371 (at DH or corner outfield).
But that is not nearly enough damage for a 4 or 5 spot on a quality team.
Simply not the right use, not the right role.
Let him be who he is.
But don't put the burden on him - or any other player - of expecting more than what evidence suggests.
Mo has had a long history of doing that very thing - and that has been a disaster.
Why would anyone want to repeat that bad bet yet again?
Weird how folks ignore evidence in favor of dreams and confuse facts for criticism.

You also said the same thing about Matt Carpenter for years. And it took 4 or 5 years for his production to drop

Incorrect in every way.
But I am glad you mentioned Carpenter.
In realty, I said he ruined his own career by trying to become something he was never going to be.
Carpenter was sensational in 2013 (by the way, he had 73 XBH's - 55 doubles - that year - unlike Herrera who is on track for about 24 XBH's currently).
But 2 years later he and the Cardinals decided they wanted him to be a middle order HR force.
And it immediately ruined his career.
When they signed him to an extension, I said it was a massive mistake.
I was right, of course.
He should have had a better career - but he and team tried to force fit into being something he was not.
Folks are always better off when they take time to learn from history.
And from me.
Let Herrera be who he is.
Resist the notion of him somehow magically transforming into a cleanup type middle order power bat.
Not only would it not be best for him (see what happened when the team told Walker he needed to swing for the fences), but it would also tempt the team to not acquire the bat they need for that role.
Why would anyone want to repeat the same flawed and failed mistake with Herrera as they did with Carpenter?
No one would.
I appreciate you supporting my point.

[Melville]

People in this thread seem to think that if he isn't a middle of the order bat he isn't good or valuable. If he doesn't turn out to be your 3,4,5 hitter that's ok, he's still extremely valuable in the lineup in complementary positions in the order

Exactly.
Not hard, is it?
Winn started out well in the #2 spot - and faded.
Herrera with his high BA/OBP profile looks good there.
But even with the year he is having, he would struggle to reach 50 XBH's over a full season - which is woefully short of what is needed from a middle order bat.
Strange to see folks arguing against that.

[Melville]

Lol. (drat) that Herrera sucks. Good call.

Weird.
Why would you say Herrera sucks?
Terrible catcher - now largely retired from that position it would appear, which is certainly good news for him and his career (as I first advised 3 years ago).
Solid BA/OBP bat which could play at a corner outfield if the glove can make it there.
These truths have been obvious for a long time.

You also talked up Pages incessantly as some kind of pitcher whisperer whom the starting staff couldn't live without.

Time to own up that he sucks and should not be here next year.

Wrong again.
I said that he is the best of the 3 current options - and is very clearly the choice the pitchers and staff trust behind the plate.
I said he is the starter of the 3 - until one of the prospects who are on their way take it away from him.
Specifically said that Crooks should be given that opportunity next year.
Correct on every point.
By the way, did you know that while Herrera has 14 HR in 532 career PA's, Pages has 13 in 483?
I don't think that makes Pages a middle order RH power bat.
Do you?

[rockondlouie]

Coming off the injury it took him a few games to get his timing back and........it's back!

Last 5 GP
.316 .435 .474 .908

Too bad we don't have half a dozen Ivan's to worry about.

[icon]

Lol. (drat) that Herrera sucks. Good call.

Weird.
Why would you say Herrera sucks?
Terrible catcher - now largely retired from that position it would appear, which is certainly good news for him and his career (as I first advised 3 years ago).
Solid BA/OBP bat which could play at a corner outfield if the glove can make it there.
These truths have been obvious for a long time.

You also talked up Pages incessantly as some kind of pitcher whisperer whom the starting staff couldn't live without.

Time to own up that he sucks and should not be here next year.

Wrong again.
I said that he is the best of the 3 current options - and is very clearly the choice the pitchers and staff trust behind the plate.
I said he is the starter of the 3 - until one of the prospects who are on their way take it away from him.
Specifically said that Crooks should be given that opportunity next year.
Correct on every point.
By the way, did you know that while Herrera has 14 HR in 532 career PA's, Pages has 13 in 483?
I don't think that makes Pages a middle order RH power bat.
Do you?

What is Pages' catcher ERA of late? What was it last night with Sonny Gray pitching? And how is Pages' sub .600 OPS comparable to Herrera's nearly .900 OPS? Herrera has a future here. Pages does not. End of story.

[Othawhitemeat]

Zero XBH's in 23 PA's.
4 XBH's in 68 PA's last month.
4 XBH's in his last 91 PA's.
2 doubles in his last 35 games.
Ugly.
Some declared him a middle order bat.
I warned against that thinking.
Said he could very well be a high BA, high OBP guy - but no evidence that he can become a middle order producer.
My advice?
Keep reading.
Keep learning.

We need to cut thru the bullchit. .315 .392 .899 looks like it can be a MOTOB to me.

Same thing folks were saying about the Paper Tyler during a brief streak over a couple hundred at-bats a few years ago.
I said it didn't make him a middle order bat.
99%+ disagreed with me - and every one of them was wrong.
Again, it is always wiser to rely on facts more so than hope.
Herrera has proven he can be a very good BA/OBP guy - who has been in need of a position.
Corner outfield could be the ticket - as I advised 3 years ago.
Folks need to set reasonable expectations.
Fact is, he hit a HR tonight (that's a good thing) - but it was also his first and only XBH in 36 July PA's.
He had 4 in 68 PA's last month.
That is 5 XBH's in 104 PA's.
That's less than half of what a middle order bat should contribute at a minimum.
For the year, he now has 17 XBH's in 207 PA's - which is low compared to several of his own teammates.
That is plenty good enough for a #2 hitter with an OBP of .371 (at DH or corner outfield).
But that is not nearly enough damage for a 4 or 5 spot on a quality team.
Simply not the right use, not the right role.
Let him be who he is.
But don't put the burden on him - or any other player - of expecting more than what evidence suggests.
Mo has had a long history of doing that very thing - and that has been a disaster.
Why would anyone want to repeat that bad bet yet again?
Weird how folks ignore evidence in favor of dreams and confuse facts for criticism.

You also said the same thing about Matt Carpenter for years. And it took 4 or 5 years for his production to drop

Incorrect in every way.
But I am glad you mentioned Carpenter.
In realty, I said he ruined his own career by trying to become something he was never going to be.
Carpenter was sensational in 2013 (by the way, he had 73 XBH's - 55 doubles - that year - unlike Herrera who is on track for about 24 XBH's currently).
But 2 years later he and the Cardinals decided they wanted him to be a middle order HR force.
And it immediately ruined his career.
When they signed him to an extension, I said it was a massive mistake.
I was right, of course.
He should have had a better career - but he and team tried to force fit into being something he was not.
Folks are always better off when they take time to learn from history.
And from me.
Let Herrera be who he is.
Resist the notion of him somehow magically transforming into a cleanup type middle order power bat.
Not only would it not be best for him (see what happened when the team told Walker he needed to swing for the fences), but it would also tempt the team to not acquire the bat they need for that role.
Why would anyone want to repeat the same flawed and failed mistake with Herrera as they did with Carpenter?
No one would.
I appreciate you supporting my point.

Stop it man. Dude is literally in his 1st real year. He has had some injuries and that is the concern, but the bat looks to be something that could be something, but will see. He shows plate discipline, timely hitting and has some pop. Can he be consistent - who knows, but we dont really know because he has been injured amd then tries to come off and show some pop. Maybe, he over-compensated, maybe he is Allen Craig, or maybe he can be a middle of order hitter, but we wont know until we see more. It is way to early to tell other than he has some good hitting tools that I would like to see what we have.

[bccardsfan]

Zero XBH's in 23 PA's.
4 XBH's in 68 PA's last month.
4 XBH's in his last 91 PA's.
2 doubles in his last 35 games.
Ugly.
Some declared him a middle order bat.
I warned against that thinking.
Said he could very well be a high BA, high OBP guy - but no evidence that he can become a middle order producer.
My advice?
Keep reading.
Keep learning.

We need to cut thru the bullchit. .315 .392 .899 looks like it can be a MOTOB to me.

Same thing folks were saying about the Paper Tyler during a brief streak over a couple hundred at-bats a few years ago.
I said it didn't make him a middle order bat.
99%+ disagreed with me - and every one of them was wrong.
Again, it is always wiser to rely on facts more so than hope.
Herrera has proven he can be a very good BA/OBP guy - who has been in need of a position.
Corner outfield could be the ticket - as I advised 3 years ago.
Folks need to set reasonable expectations.
Fact is, he hit a HR tonight (that's a good thing) - but it was also his first and only XBH in 36 July PA's.
He had 4 in 68 PA's last month.
That is 5 XBH's in 104 PA's.
That's less than half of what a middle order bat should contribute at a minimum.
For the year, he now has 17 XBH's in 207 PA's - which is low compared to several of his own teammates.
That is plenty good enough for a #2 hitter with an OBP of .371 (at DH or corner outfield).
But that is not nearly enough damage for a 4 or 5 spot on a quality team.
Simply not the right use, not the right role.
Let him be who he is.
But don't put the burden on him - or any other player - of expecting more than what evidence suggests.
Mo has had a long history of doing that very thing - and that has been a disaster.
Why would anyone want to repeat that bad bet yet again?
Weird how folks ignore evidence in favor of dreams and confuse facts for criticism.

You also said the same thing about Matt Carpenter for years. And it took 4 or 5 years for his production to drop

Incorrect in every way.
But I am glad you mentioned Carpenter.
In realty, I said he ruined his own career by trying to become something he was never going to be.
Carpenter was sensational in 2013 (by the way, he had 73 XBH's - 55 doubles - that year - unlike Herrera who is on track for about 24 XBH's currently).
But 2 years later he and the Cardinals decided they wanted him to be a middle order HR force.
And it immediately ruined his career.
When they signed him to an extension, I said it was a massive mistake.
I was right, of course.
He should have had a better career - but he and team tried to force fit into being something he was not.
Folks are always better off when they take time to learn from history.
And from me.
Let Herrera be who he is.
Resist the notion of him somehow magically transforming into a cleanup type middle order power bat.
Not only would it not be best for him (see what happened when the team told Walker he needed to swing for the fences), but it would also tempt the team to not acquire the bat they need for that role.
Why would anyone want to repeat the same flawed and failed mistake with Herrera as they did with Carpenter?
No one would.
I appreciate you supporting my point.

Stop it man. Dude is literally in his 1st real year. He has had some injuries and that is the concern, but the bat looks to be something that could be something, but will see. He shows plate discipline, timely hitting and has some pop. Can he be consistent - who knows, but we dont really know because he has been injured amd then tries to come off and show some pop. Maybe, he over-compensated, maybe he is Allen Craig, or maybe he can be a middle of order hitter, but we wont know until we see more. It is way to early to tell other than he has some good hitting tools that I would like to see what we have.

Exactly. This kid can hit... right now. The league will adjust, and then he will have to adjust. If he can stay on the field, then by the end of next season we will know if the bat is for real. Craig was a very good hitter who suffered what was essentially a career ending foot injury. He was never the same after that. I certainly would not trade Herrera unless you are blown away by an offer. I give this kid a full season to see how he does.

[hugeCardfan]

Zero XBH's in 23 PA's.
4 XBH's in 68 PA's last month.
4 XBH's in his last 91 PA's.
2 doubles in his last 35 games.
Ugly.
Some declared him a middle order bat.
I warned against that thinking.
Said he could very well be a high BA, high OBP guy - but no evidence that he can become a middle order producer.
My advice?
Keep reading.
Keep learning.

We need to cut thru the bullchit. .315 .392 .899 looks like it can be a MOTOB to me.

Same thing folks were saying about the Paper Tyler during a brief streak over a couple hundred at-bats a few years ago.
I said it didn't make him a middle order bat.
99%+ disagreed with me - and every one of them was wrong.
Again, it is always wiser to rely on facts more so than hope.
Herrera has proven he can be a very good BA/OBP guy - who has been in need of a position.
Corner outfield could be the ticket - as I advised 3 years ago.
Folks need to set reasonable expectations.
Fact is, he hit a HR tonight (that's a good thing) - but it was also his first and only XBH in 36 July PA's.
He had 4 in 68 PA's last month.
That is 5 XBH's in 104 PA's.
That's less than half of what a middle order bat should contribute at a minimum.
For the year, he now has 17 XBH's in 207 PA's - which is low compared to several of his own teammates.
That is plenty good enough for a #2 hitter with an OBP of .371 (at DH or corner outfield).
But that is not nearly enough damage for a 4 or 5 spot on a quality team.
Simply not the right use, not the right role.
Let him be who he is.
But don't put the burden on him - or any other player - of expecting more than what evidence suggests.
Mo has had a long history of doing that very thing - and that has been a disaster.
Why would anyone want to repeat that bad bet yet again?
Weird how folks ignore evidence in favor of dreams and confuse facts for criticism.

The facts are that he doesn't appear to be a catcher. He can't hold up his end defensively and the job causes injuries that take him out of the lineup. We can't point to the cumulative work in July and say voila! Injuries beget down time which can lead to rehab time...etc.

He's not O'Neill. Sure, let's see if he can work in the outfield. We also know he might be a very good DH. But, any suggestion that you have insight on his ability to hit in the middle of the order is pure bullchit. The evidence you claim, simply isn't there. He's just finding out who he is. He's 25, doesn't have 500 ML at bats and has been held back not by his hitting but his fielding.

We need to find out if he's purely a DH or can be an everyday in the field. You can't categorize him with your self aggrandized insight... yet.

[Hazelwood72]

A MOB?

The standards have fallen off a cliff with fans and the organization.

The only player that remotely qualifies is Contreras.

Correct.
Weird how folks object when truth is told.
Losing 4 out of 5 will do that.

I've been correct on this team since they whiffed on signing Harper.

Before that, Mozo whiffed on signing Buehrle and Scherzer, both still in their pitching prime, both St. Louis area guys who would have liked to come here. In Buehrle’s case, the root cause was because Mozo dawdled on making a decision to re-sign Pujols or not. By the time Mozo decided not to resign Albert (correct decision, but way too late), Buehrle was off the table. Would we have been able to get past the Giants in 2012 and 2014 and the Red Sox in 2013 and the Cubs in 2015 with Buehrle on our staff? Who knows, but it couldn’t have hurt.

[JDW]

We don't know enough about Herrera yet, but if he can maintain better health, it looks like he has a chance to be a MOTOB.
A .900 OPS plays anywhere in the lineup for all teams. Is he that guy? Too early to say with much confidence.

[ClassicO]

Mel, Mel Mel: You are oblivious to the "search" function:

Mel -
"Herrera or Knizner will be traded. Herrera is the more likely to go;" Neither were traded.
Herrera - "Don't read too much into his 150 ABs." Yeah - we won't read much into his .900 OPS - and we won't believe our own eyes as we watch him.

You realize how badly you've projected SO many things? I listed 15 erroneous posts of yours a while ago, and you were silent. Should I repeat that or can you just admit it (ha ha).

And you've been dead wrong on Pages -- whom you predicted was on track to be +38 in defensive runs saved in 2025 after his +8 May. Want to check that again - he's down to +5 (that's 33 less than 38 if you need math help)? He's a statue. He has one tool- throwing out runners, but can't block and can't hit (insanely bad 58 OPS+). They need to send him down and bring up Crooks to see what they have in him. They know what they [don't] have in Pages, and he will be replaced by Bernal.

[Voldemort]

Zero XBH's in 23 PA's.
4 XBH's in 68 PA's last month.
4 XBH's in his last 91 PA's.
2 doubles in his last 35 games.
Ugly.
Some declared him a middle order bat.
I warned against that thinking.
Said he could very well be a high BA, high OBP guy - but no evidence that he can become a middle order producer.
My advice?
Keep reading.
Keep learning.

We need to cut thru the bullchit. .315 .392 .899 looks like it can be a MOTOB to me.

Same thing folks were saying about the Paper Tyler during a brief streak over a couple hundred at-bats a few years ago.
I said it didn't make him a middle order bat.
99%+ disagreed with me - and every one of them was wrong.
Again, it is always wiser to rely on facts more so than hope.
Herrera has proven he can be a very good BA/OBP guy - who has been in need of a position.
Corner outfield could be the ticket - as I advised 3 years ago.
Folks need to set reasonable expectations.
Fact is, he hit a HR tonight (that's a good thing) - but it was also his first and only XBH in 36 July PA's.
He had 4 in 68 PA's last month.
That is 5 XBH's in 104 PA's.
That's less than half of what a middle order bat should contribute at a minimum.
For the year, he now has 17 XBH's in 207 PA's - which is low compared to several of his own teammates.
That is plenty good enough for a #2 hitter with an OBP of .371 (at DH or corner outfield).
But that is not nearly enough damage for a 4 or 5 spot on a quality team.
Simply not the right use, not the right role.
Let him be who he is.
But don't put the burden on him - or any other player - of expecting more than what evidence suggests.
Mo has had a long history of doing that very thing - and that has been a disaster.
Why would anyone want to repeat that bad bet yet again?
Weird how folks ignore evidence in favor of dreams and confuse facts for criticism.

Nothing demonstrates that you are a liar more than this post. You did none of this. Provide the old quotes proving your assertions that you knew all of this. You can't.

[jbrach]

herrera can hit, end of story....stupid post

[Poojols]

Zero XBH's in 23 PA's.
4 XBH's in 68 PA's last month.
4 XBH's in his last 91 PA's.
2 doubles in his last 35 games.
Ugly.
Some declared him a middle order bat.
I warned against that thinking.
Said he could very well be a high BA, high OBP guy - but no evidence that he can become a middle order producer.
My advice?
Keep reading.
Keep learning.

We need to cut thru the bullchit. .315 .392 .899 looks like it can be a MOTOB to me.

Same thing folks were saying about the Paper Tyler during a brief streak over a couple hundred at-bats a few years ago.
I said it didn't make him a middle order bat.
99%+ disagreed with me - and every one of them was wrong.
Again, it is always wiser to rely on facts more so than hope.
Herrera has proven he can be a very good BA/OBP guy - who has been in need of a position.
Corner outfield could be the ticket - as I advised 3 years ago.
Folks need to set reasonable expectations.
Fact is, he hit a HR tonight (that's a good thing) - but it was also his first and only XBH in 36 July PA's.
He had 4 in 68 PA's last month.
That is 5 XBH's in 104 PA's.
That's less than half of what a middle order bat should contribute at a minimum.
For the year, he now has 17 XBH's in 207 PA's - which is low compared to several of his own teammates.
That is plenty good enough for a #2 hitter with an OBP of .371 (at DH or corner outfield).
But that is not nearly enough damage for a 4 or 5 spot on a quality team.
Simply not the right use, not the right role.
Let him be who he is.
But don't put the burden on him - or any other player - of expecting more than what evidence suggests.
Mo has had a long history of doing that very thing - and that has been a disaster.
Why would anyone want to repeat that bad bet yet again?
Weird how folks ignore evidence in favor of dreams and confuse facts for criticism.

You also said the same thing about Matt Carpenter for years. And it took 4 or 5 years for his production to drop

Incorrect in every way.
But I am glad you mentioned Carpenter.
In realty, I said he ruined his own career by trying to become something he was never going to be.
Carpenter was sensational in 2013 (by the way, he had 73 XBH's - 55 doubles - that year - unlike Herrera who is on track for about 24 XBH's currently).
But 2 years later he and the Cardinals decided they wanted him to be a middle order HR force.
And it immediately ruined his career.
When they signed him to an extension, I said it was a massive mistake.
I was right, of course.
He should have had a better career - but he and team tried to force fit into being something he was not.
Folks are always better off when they take time to learn from history.
And from me.
Let Herrera be who he is.
Resist the notion of him somehow magically transforming into a cleanup type middle order power bat.
Not only would it not be best for him (see what happened when the team told Walker he needed to swing for the fences), but it would also tempt the team to not acquire the bat they need for that role.
Why would anyone want to repeat the same flawed and failed mistake with Herrera as they did with Carpenter?
No one would.
I appreciate you supporting my point.

Herrera forced himself into the middle of the lineup by being a middle of the order type hitter. Unfortunately he can't stay healthy this season. The guy has power. No need for anyone to want him to magically transform.

[Melville]

Update.
4 XBH's in 68 June PA's.
1 XBH's in 60 July PA's.
3 XBH's in 46 August PA's.
That is 8 XBH's in his last 174 PA's.
Bad.
Really bad.
Worse than most backup, end of the bench, middle infielders.
I warned about this.
When everyone else was badly fooled by 2 days in April, I was not.
Some went so far at to anoint Herrera as the RH middle order bat the team has been searching for.
I knew better.
And said so.
My advice to all?
Keep reading.
Keep learning.