Nancy Pelosi
WASHINGTON — In the blowback to the shifting health care debate, many progressives were wondering today what kind of reform would be left if Democrats back off the demand that any package contain a government entity to compete with insurance companies.
Some note that no-one is talking about removing another central tenet, that everybody be required to have health insurance.
Rather than rein in insurance companies, are we about to give them a vast new world of subsidized business that lacks the competitive means to bring down costs?
After spending a year first as a candidate and then as president building the case for a public insurance option, is President Barack Obama folding his hand this easily? Was it just a bargaining chip all along?
That may not sit well with Obama backers who heard candidate Obama ask on the campaign trail: “Why should people be forced to buy something they can’t afford?”
House liberals are irritated, which is why, this afternoon, Speaker Nancy Pelosi reitered her commitment to passing legislation that includes the public option.She said in a statement: “As the president stated in March, ‘The thinking on the public option has been that it gives consumers more choices and it helps keep the private sector honest’ … We agree with the president that a public option will keep insurance companies honest and increase competition.”
Meanwhile, leaders of the Congressional Progressive Caucus and the Congressional Black Caucus fired off a letter to Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius asserting that it would be “a grave error” to take the public option off the table.
Supporters also distributed a letter signed before House members went on recess saying that any legislation lacking the public option would be unacceptable and would not achieve the goal of “keeping insurance companies honest.”
(Does it sound like these folks are singing from the same sheet music, or what?)
Rep. William Lacy Clay, D-St. Louis, was among those who signed the letter.
Jim Hubbard, spokesman for Rep. Russ Carnahan, D-St. Louis, said this afternoon that Carnahan “supports health insurance reform that lowers cost and makes sure that all Americans can get quality, affordable health care they can count on. He believes that increasing competition between the private health insurance companies and a public plan is the best way to achieve those goals.”
Looks like health-care reform could come down to a battle royale in a House-Senate conference this fall.
I don’t understand all this angts about ‘government control.’ Why do opponents of reform believe universal health care would result in anymore involvement than Medicare does now? And what’s this government so many people fear? This isn’t Iran! In the USA, all of us citizens are the government. My congressman is far more responsive to a problem I may have with Medicare than anyone has experienced with their HMOs and for profit insurance providers.
Why are those who are outraged by the economic mess dumped on us by the free market geniuses willing to trust the same hierarchy to modernize health care? I watched the Senate & House hearings & markup sessions and I haven’t heard anything from opponents that’s either factually accurate or not a distortion. NOTE: Anyone who asks why the big hurry is either unaware of or concealing the industry’s trends and efforts for the past 30+ years from you.
I’m proud of my country; we can provide universal health care that’s better than France’s, Canada, England, etc.
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Thank you for your kind comments. Let me make something clear, while I am certain that Jim the Republican and I may find many things on which to disagree, I find that trying to stick to facts, especially when it comes to our founding documents (that “piece of paper that gives us our country”), rather than suppositions about what we “think” it says, is important. (follow the commas)
The whole “health care debate”, a term I find troubling because it does not address “health care”, but really is more about insurance regulation, and, given the amount of perjorative flung freely, hardly a “debate”.
I will remind folk that the Constitution is greater than the Bill of Rights and the other the other 17 amendments. I find it sad that so many people yammer on about “my constitutional rights”, and yet after the first two amendments do not seem to know what is there. for a “quick list” cf. http://www.docstoc.com/docs/4294420/amendments-1-27
However, since the Supreme Court has used the Preamble to the Constitution in some of its’ decision to illustrate underlying principles not specifically stated elsewhere, “promote the general welfare” has been used. Since the Supreme Court is the final arbiter (unless an amendment is passed) of what the Constititution says and how to interpret it (like it or not), it gets to say what it considers part of the Constitution.
That was my point, not necesarily to take sides. I still feel that the current “health care reform” debate has little to do with actual health care, and more to do with insurance regulation.
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D. Walker,
Please tell me that you are in NO position to actually interpret and apply policy, whether it is laws or business policy.
If you can’t clearly see that the 10th Amendment refers to the fact that “if it ain’t in the constitution, the federal government shouldn’t be doing it – the states should,” then you are clearly misinformed.
It is no secret that our founding fathers wanted there to be a weak federal (central) government and a strong set of state governments.
“The people spoke” by electing Obama president, so he should be able to do wahtever he wants, Constitution be damned, is what it sounds like you’re saying.
Please — if I’m misinterpreting your words, correct me. Although, clearly, I am not.
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Jim(the Republican),
I beg to differ that the 10 amendment states any such thing.
It states as clear as glass that the Tenth Amendment restates the Constitution’s principle of federalism by providing that powers not granted to the national government nor prohibited to the states are reserved to the states OR THE PEOPLE.
THE PEOPLE SPOKE, WE VOTED FOR THE CANDIDATE (OBAMA)WHO PROMISED US HEATHCARE REFORM AS PROMISED IN HIS PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN. THE PUBLIC OPTION IS A MUST!
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D. Walker,
I don’t think the Constitution is a perfect document, “that would NEVER need amending or that it would forever have everything within it that would ever be needed in our society…”
In fact, there have been a number of amendments to our Constitution, of which I’m certain you are aware.
The most telling one, however, is the 10th Amendment.
THAT is where people like me “get the mind-set that if it is not spelled out in the Constitution as being able to be applied within our society, then, it can’t and should not be.”
In fact — that is the entire meaning of the amendment.
You should try reading it sometime.
Garrison, I really should apologize to you — I set you up.
I asked a question that I knew you could not answer.
By the way — you are only in competition with those governmental entities if you try to do work for them, and they have to decide whether or not to do a project in-house, or contract it out. You are NOT in competition with any governmental entity when it comes to doing private work, whatsoever.
Consider yourself fortunate.
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RHarnack,
I agree, excellent post!
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Jim (the Republican),
Why do you assume and others such as you think that man created a perfect document (The Constitution) that would NEVER need amending or that it would forever have everything within it that would ever be needed in our society? Remind you, it was once spelled out within that document that Blacks were no whole persons and where property.
Where do people such as you get the mind-set that if it is not spelled out in the Constitution as being able to be applied within our society, then, it can’t and should not be? Why do you have the mind-set that man is infallible and that that Constitution was not infallible?
The more sensible question would not be to ask me to recite exactly a constitutional authority for the federal government taking over an industry, but, for you to give us an explanation and answer for, where within the Constitution does it give you the ideal that because healthcare is not specifically mentioned in it, that that is a viable enough reason for not having a public healthcare option or, any other government take over of anything else in this society if such circumstances would be for the better good of the people in this society?
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Excellent post RHarnack.
Sometimes Jim (R) likes to be choosy about what he wants to accept as fact.
He asks me how I would like to be shut out of a government electrical contract that’s subsidized by my tax dollars….The “no-bid” scab electrical contracts Cheney gave to his buddies at Haliburton/KRB have killed 7 U.S. servicemen at a cost of $4,600 per manhour.
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Jim the R said “… the Preamble to the Constiution is NOT the Constitution…”
This is simply an untrue statement. The Preamble to the Constitution is as much a part of the Constitution as an author’s preface to their book is part of their book, or more to the point, as the Federalist Papers are often cited as explaining the Cosntitution. For more cf http://supreme.lp.findlaw.com/constitution/preamble/
“Education is a state responsibility — In fact, I think it’s probably mentioned in every state constitution. It is not mentioned anywhere in the U.S. Constitution, and I believe that most would tell you that federal involvement in education (NCLB, for example) does more harm than good. The U.S. Dept. of Education is nothing more than a job farm for bureaucrats.”
Education, in the form of schools and school boards, is a local responsibility with State laws setting up the rules for how the school districts are to function. Since the Brown decision, the Federal government has stated that there are broader issues that all schools must subscribe to at the minimum. Cf. http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=347&invol=483
and,
http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/cor/coord/titleixstat.php
From Thomas Jefferson on Slavery from the conclusion:
“Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever: that considering numbers, nature and natural means only, a revolution of the wheel of fortune, an exchange of situation is among possible events: that it may become probable by supernatural interference! The almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in such a contest. – But it is impossible to be temperate and to pursue this subject through the various considerations of policy, of morals, of history natural and civil. We must be contented to hope they will force their way into every one’s mind. I think a change already perceptible, since the origin of the present revolution. The spirit of the master is abating, that of the slave rising from the dust, his condition mollifying, the way I hope preparing, under the auspices of heaven, for a total emancipation, and that this is disposed, in the order of events, to be with the consent of the masters, rather than by their extirpation.” Cf http://afroamhistory.about.com/library/bljefferson_slavery.htm ,also, cf http://www.temple.edu/lawschool/dpost/slavery.PDF
More, later.
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I compete with the government everyday. The City of St. Louis hires their own electricians…The State of Missouri has over 800 maintenance electricians….And the Federal Government hires scab KRB electricians to wire electrocution booths in Iraq.
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Well, Garrison, I asked you to follow three simple rules, and you couldn’t.
First, I asked you to provide any constitutional authority for the takeover of an industry, specifically health care.
You might not think it’s a takeover attempt, but it is. You’re an electrical contractor, right? Suppose the government decided that it was going to offer to subsidize, at prevailing wage, new electrical construction jobs, provided you used their approved plan (and employees), and you weren’t a part of that plan.
Think you could compete? You state that you’re a capitalist, and that you like to play on a level playing field — how is a playing field level if the government, through tax subsidies, is your competition?
The second thing I asked you to do is tell how such a government subsidy can provide for fair and open competition. You haven’t provided that, either.
You just have your talking points and are moving on ahead, aren’t you?
I also asked that you respond without calling names, yet the inferences you make were pretty harsh. Just because I asked you to think for yourself for a change.
Sorry it was so difficult. I’ll try something more remedial next time.
Like … spell SOCIALIST.
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“Try not to call names.”
Good luck with that Jim… might as well try and tell my Pointer not to hunt.
Meanwhile as the liberals around here are following my request, the voters of the nation are speaking loudly… 54% now want Congress to TAKE NO ACTION of health care this year.
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Jim…I am a capitalist. I like to play on a level playing field.
I guess Congress was foolish with the Sherman Anti-Trust Act.
Bring me back to the days of Rockefeller, Carnegie, and JP Morgan.
Those were the days…The Preamble to the Constitution states its purpose and the U.S. Supreme Court has used the Preamble several times for Judicial Review and Constitutional intent (get over it).
Your original question asks… When did government ever interfered with private enterprise…but then you make the request not to mention any government programs. That’s brilliant Jim.
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First of all, Garrison, the Preamble to the Constiution is NOT the Constitution.
Secondly, I told you in the ground rules not to use other government programs as examples — just stick to this one. I really didn’t expect you to stick to that, though.
Education is a state responsibility — In fact, I think it’s probably mentioned in every state constitution. It is not mentioned anywhere in the U.S. Constitution, and I believe that most would tell you that federal involvement in education (NCLB, for example) does more harm than good. The U.S. Dept. of Education is nothing more than a job farm for bureaucrats.
I often wonder what Thomas Jefferson WOULD think of people like me — people who think that ALL people should breathe free, rather than being property to be used as slaves for labor and sex. Obviously, that’s what Jefferson thought of them.
Even your abortion argument is a joke. If I could vote to make abortion illegal, with the ONLY exception being the life of the mother, I would.
But that issue is far too deep for you to grasp, since you think it’s only about unwanted pregnancies.
Garrison, the people who read these pages have seen your diatribe far too often. You don’t seem to think people can get by without government helping to control them — but people for centuries have gotten by in SPITE of government.
You just think that government control is a good starting point. I happen to think it’s an ending point.
We are a capitalist country. Get over it!
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“We the People of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, PROMOTE THE GENERAL WELFARE, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution of the United States of America…
Our public education system is based upon the Preamble to the U.S. Constitution.
If it was up to Jim (R), education would be like healthcare…only available to those who can afford it. The rest of America be damned.
I wonder what Thomas Jefferson would think of people like Jim (R)?
Hey Jimmy…
If you could save 24,000 children from abortion, would you do it?
Until then…your prolife argument is a joke.
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D. Walker, Garrison,
Without using the argument about ANY other government program, I would like for you to recite exactly what constitutional authority the federal government has for taking over any industry, but specifically the health care industry.
And in the event you wish to argue that they aren’t “taking over the health care industry,” at what point does a taxpayer subsidized program become a “viable alternative with fair and open competition” to anything in the private sector?
Try not to call names.
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One last thing concerning the ridudiculous ideal of Co-Op’s:
In order for a co-op to be large enough to even touch the number of people that would be needed in the United States, it would HAVE TO TAKE ON THE APPEARENCE of A GOVERNMENT SPONSERED ENTERPRISE with the characteristics of a enterprise almost exactly as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
NO THANK YOU! We never in our history need other enterprises with the appearence of government such as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, that would be crazy to allow in this country ever again.
The “Public Option Plan” is the only way to make a difference and have it work.
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tsqaure….
Your comments are identical to the pro-business comments said about FDR after Hoover padded the pockets of corporate intersts. FDR promised to invest billions in public projects, proposed public healthcare for seniors citizens, promised to invest in this country’s infrastructure, and expanded the role of labor unions which resulted in middle-class prosperity for the first time in our nation’s history….
And in 1933 the hard-lined conservatives said this will be the end of Roosevelt and the Democratic party.
Of, course Roosevelt went on to serve 4 terms and Democrats ruled Congress for 40 years….But other than that, yous’ guys was right.
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Tsquare,
You mean, when this bill pass because it will.
Down the road, people will be worshipping Obama and I suggest that they not do this because NO MAN SHOULD BE WORSHIPPED, but, I would suggest people recognize the good he did by not letting up on a “public option” and keeping his promise to “BE A GOVERNMENT UNDER HIS REIGN; A GOVERNMENT THAT IS FOR THE PEOPLE”, even though the confused among us like you are too blind to see this now.
My hope for people such as you are that you guys will be so blessed that the blinders will be removed from your eyes so that you will be able to see what is true.
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D. Walker, Garrison:
Please do something for me. Go out and enjoy the day. That’s it… just go and enjoy… enjoy the fact that we have a socialist in the White House. Enjoy your 60 votes in the Senate… led by that Evil Clown Franken. Enjoy Speak Pelosi… for whatever reason. Enjoy Henry Waxman, Charlie Rangle, and Barney Frank. You can even enjoy Russ and Claire if you wish to.
Enjoy the day… and maybe tomorrow and the next day.
We are going to break you on health care.
This is the high water mark of both you on the far left and your Master Obama. It’s all down hill from here.
You get this health bill passed and the outrage will last way past the 2010 election. It’s passage will insure us Republicans the House in 2010. Those 50 Blue Dog seats will fall to the GOP so fast your heads will spin. Don’t believe me… listen to the Blue Dogs… they’ll tell you. Passing this bill will also give us oh…. About 5 seats in the Senate… say goodbye to your 60 and closure.
Pass this bill ‘dirty’ like through reconciliation or some other trick… and will get all that and maybe… just maybe… control of the Senate.
Pass this bill and the economy will sink (again) on the power of trillions more in debt and the spike in taxes made necessary to fund it. The rage will spike and millions will rally to the cause of throwing the Democrats out.
Or don’t pass this bill, and show just how unpopular your Master and his policies are. He knows, as I do, this is his one shot at it’s passage… that’s one reason for all the rush. As soon as people find out what’s in this POS, they know that they don’t want it.
Your Master got himself elected or more to the point, was sold to the voters as a ‘moderate’ ‘uniter’ He has proven himself to be neither. All those millions that voted for him for those reasons are abandoning him now… the railroading on a stimulus that did stimulate, cap and trade that nobody wants, trillions in debt, and now health care in the form of HR 3200. He was elected on lies and the American people will not fall for it a second time. He too knows this… which again is the reason for all the speed. Your Master knows he has a very short time in which he can fool the nation… this time is almost over.
We break both him and you on this HR 3200.
So… enjoy the day. And the next. And maybe the one after that. These days for you and your Master are fleeting. You and your Master are now caught in the web of your won making.
Your time in power nears its end.
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Ah, jeez… GARRISON with the name calling. Again.
===
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Re: Healthcare Co-Op.
It is typical for Republican Politicians and some Democrats who could care less about the good of the people to want Healthcare Co-Ops which another type could be just like the government sponsored enterprises of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. People have better run like they are running away from Satan with this Co-Op ideal. It is bad and it will be so damaging to this country and its people!
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I never heard Obama claim he doesn’t want the public option.
He stated over the weekend:
“If we can manage to get the public option or if we don’t.”
That doesn’t mean he’s not going to fight for it…even against those people who need it most.
It’s estimated that over 60% of the people in poor southern red states who vote republican lack adequate health insurance….I give Obama a lot of credit for not telling these red-necks from Alabama…
“You don’t won’t healthcare reform, fine…raise money by having tea parties and bake sales if your children get sick”.
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Mensa_Underground,
NOTHING HAS CHANGED!
Do you not believe that building your case on a weak foundation based on lies is not something that you can depend on and that one way or the other, it will catch up with you? Even if it is when so many in our population are dying from illnesses that could have been controlled had they had access to health care.
But, it will not even go that direction because now that word is being put out that the public option will be taken off the table, you will now see the numbers change in support of the “public option” because TRUTHFUL INFORMATION will now hit the public in a big way.
There are more reasonable people than the irrational “Opposers” that we have been witnessing making so much noise and causing so much confusion.
The Democrats failed early on to take a proactive role in talking up “ALL THE BENEFITS TO AMERICAN CITIZENS” that are the goal of the “Public Option” parts of HR 3200.
The Democrats should have been talking about the BENEFITS of “public option” doing this from the very moment after they were in office and at the latest, immediately after those who oppose the public option began to attempt to sabotage it with LIES that they were putting out to the public.
CO-OP’S IS NOT AN OPTION! IT WILL NOT BRING DOWN COST TO ANYONE; IT WILL ONLY MAKE SOME PEOPLE RICH DOWN THE ROAD.
Most all non-profit co-ops have reorganized to become for profit co-ops, from healthcare to utility companies. See, not much ever change with these type politician who are big business whores, where it is always about someone getting rich at detriment of our citizens (the people).
Now just watch how the numbers change with the truthful information, even though LATE. Health Insurance Company money will not be worth one Democratic lost seat.
The insurance companies and the “money monger whores” will lose this battle because they are the ones behind the pundits who have gotten all the irrational loud people worked up who are so very vulnerable and so easy to lead into their scheme of things. Just listen to how they rarely make sense and have been so vulnerable to LIES that are able to be so easily recognized by others.
Then there are others who are operating purely from what is within their dirty small hearts.
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Hey Cassandra, the will of the people was to elect Obama.
Unfortunately, things change over time. A lot of Americans woke up.
I’m proud to be a Tea Party member to stand up to people like you, Obama, Pelosi, etc. who can’t take the heat.
Cassandra, there are books in Vegas that actually are taking bets if health care passes this year. You should go out there and make your bet. You’ll be rich!! And that’s good since Barry wants to tax you high earners to death!
2bad4u.
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When you say going against the will of the people, tsquare, I presume you mean the will of the people who got their butts handed to them voting for McCain. I swear that election is over; I’m sure it was in all the papers. You teabaggers have to learn to read better; uh, read, I guess that is.
Actually, if the legislation gets passed this year, and it will, should be clear by November elections 2010 that all the lies republicans told about it are just that, lies, innuendo, and more lies, or whatever the phrase is.
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YES PLEASE!
PRETTY PLEASE!
Please for the love of God and Country, Democrats… PASS THIS BILL!
Don’t let the Republicans stop you (not that they can) don’t let public opinion stop you… you should never take that into account.
And be sure you lean on those nasty old Blue Dogs… lean on them big… call them out, publicly humiliate them, protest against them. Make them bend to the will of the Speaker, and Waxman and the rest of the far left.
Remember your playing Chicago style politics… home of the busted knuckles, bruised egos and ruined careers.
IF the total lack of ‘post-partisanship’ doen’t do it.
IF the record trillion dollar deficit doesn’t do it.
IF ‘cap and trade’ (something so horrible that Liberals in Australia couldn’t get it passed) doesn’t do it.
Going against the will of the people and ramming this HR 3200 down their throats will kill (politically) the Democrats in 2010… if not also in 2012.
Of course if you don’t… well your base will be hacked off and sit on their hands, and stay home and likely you’ll lose anyway.
Some fun huh?
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Good for Pelosi! She’s turning out to be quite a tough cookie!
And I don’t think Obama is really backing off the public option. He’s said all along that he’s “open” to other options but skeptical that those other options could meet all of his requirements. That sounds pretty close to what was said yesterday, except the lame AP blew everything out of proportion.
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